Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

[Thumpalumpacus]

My point is precisely that the USA gives basically untied grants of $3 billion p.a. for military purposes to Israel, knowing fully well that a significant portion of it will be used not just against Palestinian terrorists but the Palestinian population at large, while granting $0.37 billion to the Palestinians on the proviso that it is not to be used for armaments..

Again, I'm not defending that imbalance. My point to you was that where that American aid to Israel is spent is irrelevant. The fact that American money is buying arms for the IDF is the rub here.

What the fuck? How come the murders carried out by Israel are always self-defence and the Palestinians are never?
You really are mega-gullible. You just soak up the press bullshit.

Wait, where did I say one was and one wasn't self-defense?

Read for comprehension. If you follow the thread, you'll see that I'm of the mind that both parties in this clusterfuck are immoral, and that killings on both sides are unjustified.

Of course, for you to get that, you have to actually read.

Quit practicing binary thinking, abandon your love affair with the excluded-middle fallacy, and learn how to read. Probably want to take the last task first, though.

[Blind groper]

But you cannot understand Israelis seeking to retaliate when suicide bombers attack their buses or missiles are launched blindly into civilian settlements?

I understand it just fine. I understand both sides. The difference is that the Palestinians have a thread of justification. Not a good thread, of course, since you cannot justify murder. But they have a much better reason to fight than Israel does. After all, Israel is what stole their land, and is persecuting their people. Israel also kills more than 10 Palestinians for each Israeli killed.

Understanding Israel does not mean I approve of their tactics. Israel is the Nazi group of 2012, and uses the same inhuman tactics the Nazis once used. Which is very ironic, considering what the German Nazis did to Jews in WWII.

[redunderthebed]

Understanding Israel does not mean I approve of their tactics. Israel is the Nazi group of 2012, and uses the same inhuman tactics the Nazis once used. Which is very ironic, considering what the German Nazis did to Jews in WWII.

+1 They come at fascism from different angles but its still fascism.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

But you cannot understand Israelis seeking to retaliate when suicide bombers attack their buses or missiles are launched blindly into civilian settlements?

I understand it just fine. I understand both sides. The difference is that the Palestinians have a thread of justification. Not a good thread, of course, since you cannot justify murder. But they have a much better reason to fight than Israel does. After all, Israel is what stole their land, and is persecuting their people. Israel also kills more than 10 Palestinians for each Israeli killed.

Understanding Israel does not mean I approve of their tactics. Israel is the Nazi group of 2012, and uses the same inhuman tactics the Nazis once used. Which is very ironic, considering what the German Nazis did to Jews in WWII.

OK. So the murder is equally reprehensible on both sides. But the Jews have an extra charge of land-grabbing added to their case, which, when added to the previous charge, makes their murders worse. Is this what you are now saying?

This is no better than your multiplicative claim that the number of casualties makes the murder that much worse in proportion.

Here is my position: -

If you use the slaughter of uninvolved civilians to further your cause, you are 100% WRONG and sacrifice any claim to relativity when blame is assigned - you are totally to blame - and if the other side have also used such tactics, then they are 100% to blame as well. All other considerations are irrelevant and NO progress can be made until both sides can agree to stop killing innocent bystanders. There can be no realistic negotiation until both sides first agree that enough is enough.

This is the situation in Israel/Palestine.

My position has always been that both sides have crossed the line. I have no love for the Israeli state. I have been there and seen how it operates. I have also ridden on a bus in Haifa that was bombed by Palestinian suicide bombers only a few weeks later!

In my view, far too many people that have never set foot in the place are quick to jump to value judgments one way or the other. It is fashionable for right-wing, religious conservatives (especially in the USA) to support Israel against any criticism based entirely on their fucked-up religious view. Sadly, this has the undesired effect that those that consider themselves either left-leaning or atheist automatically take the opposite position - which is equally wrong!

Let's face it, Palestine under Hamas is every bit as fascistic and theocratic as Israel (quite possibly more so!) I am an equal opportunity opponent of religious indoctrination and religious interference in government - I despise ALL gods equally!


Kindly bear this in mind before jumping to the conclusion that I am a supporter of either side, as I fear some here might have done.

[Blind groper]

Xamonas

Believe it or not, but I agree with your diagnosis. Both sides need to renounce violence and come to the negotiating table. Sadly, I cannot see that happening soon.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If you use the slaughter of uninvolved civilians to further your cause, you are 100% WRONG.

This. Anyone targeting civilians has discarded his legitimacy, in my book.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Xamonas

Believe it or not, but I agree with your diagnosis. Both sides need to renounce violence and come to the negotiating table. Sadly, I cannot see that happening soon.

Me neither.

So, do you still claim that Israel is solely to blame, or mostly to blame, or that that matters?

All historical crimes in the region have long degenerated into violent, tit-for-tat squabbling. The leaders of both sides have relinquished their moral highground and are fighting in the moral gutter now. That is the reality. And the civilian populations of both sides are caught in the middle - with most of them just wanting all of the shit to end.

Thankfully, such situations can be resolved. Belfast was the same in the 1970/80s. Nobody could see a way out. That changed. Things there are still not perfect but a corner has been turned (one hopes!)

[Blind groper]

So, do you still claim that Israel is solely to blame, or mostly to blame, or that that matters?

Of course.
Israel started the whole thing. Israel continues to persecute the Palestinians in a way that is utterly shameful. Israel kills at least 10 Palestinians for each Israeli killed.

Does it matter?
Not in terms of Israel and Palestine getting together and making peace. The Palestinians loading blame onto Israel can only inhibit proper negotiations.

However, I think it matters very much indeed in terms of international support. The USA supports Israel to a degree that makes Americans hated throughout the Middle East. It is high time the American government woke up to the fact that it is supporting a bunch of inhuman Nazi look-alikes. Maybe, if the USA came down hard on Israel, some kind of compromise could be forced onto them.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Aha! But the US support of Israel has nothing to do with apportion of blame or any other such mundane considerations!

It is all about religion.

Firstly, the disproportionate number of Jews among the country's wealthiest echelons. And secondly, the belief among fundamentalist xtians that the reclaiming of the holy land (and in particular, the prophesied rebuilding of the Jewish temple on the site of the Dome of the Rock mosque) is a pre-requisite for armageddon and the second-coming of jeebus - daft fuckers!)

And, likewise, the Palestinian claim to the land has an equally strong religious element. The q'r'a'p says, "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

Personally, I would like to see the Canaanites back. They knew how to party.

[mistermack]

Wait, where did I say one was and one wasn't self-defense?

Read for comprehension. If you follow the thread, you'll see that I'm of the mind that both parties in this clusterfuck are immoral, and that killings on both sides are unjustified.

And that's exactly where you are wrong.
The Palestinians are fighting a war to defend their country and people from an invasion. The Israelis are an occupying force, murdering civilians as a deterrent, to intimidate and pacify the indigenous people.

That's why the Palestinians are NOT committing murder, and the Israelis ARE.
Your simplistic picture, that both parties are immoral, is worthy of any housewife who's just picked up the paper, and only read the headline. And to say that ten deaths are no worse than one is just a joke. I hope.

Of course, for you to get that, you have to actually read.

Quit practicing binary thinking, abandon your love affair with the excluded-middle fallacy, and learn how to read. Probably want to take the last task first, though

Nope, maybe you're right. Maybe I can't read. I've tried a few times with that, and I still haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

[Blind groper]

It is all about religion.

Probably.

A few years back I read a newspaper political analysis of American involvement in Israel. According to the writer, it was about political influence. There are nearly as many Jews in the USA as in Israel (About a third of all the world's Jews are in Israel, a third in the USA, and a third in other countries, especially western Europe.). Among those American Jews are a bunch who are very, very wealthy, and who have used their money to buy political influence. They use this power to push the American administration into supporting Israel.

Now, I cannot guarantee that analysis is correct, but it sounds pretty much right to me. if so, then American support of Israel is just another example of dirty politics at work. But it is also religion, because those wealthy Jews are doubtless influenced by religion.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

It is all about religion.

Probably.

A few years back I read a newspaper political analysis of American involvement in Israel. According to the writer, it was about political influence. There are nearly as many Jews in the USA as in Israel (About a third of all the world's Jews are in Israel, a third in the USA, and a third in other countries, especially western Europe.). Among those American Jews are a bunch who are very, very wealthy, and who have used their money to buy political influence. They use this power to push the American administration into supporting Israel.

Now, I cannot guarantee that analysis is correct, but it sounds pretty much right to me. if so, then American support of Israel is just another example of dirty politics at work. But it is also religion, because those wealthy Jews are doubtless influenced by religion.

Add the influence of the fundie xtians in the US, who also support the establishment of a jewish state in Israel for their own godbothering reasons, and you have it in a nutshell. Of course, you have to balance that against the muslims that ALSO hold Jerusalem to be a piece of ground holy to their religion and, incidentally, despise the jews.

The only, truly effective, long-term solution to the conflict would be the dying out of religion. From here, that looks like a long time coming - especially in that part of the world.

Israel is a god-stoked powder-keg of conflicting insane, inane beliefs. A lasting testament to the immorality tale that is religious influence on politics. The worst of it is how few see that, preferring the comfort of "their side" being the right side.

[Warren Dew]

It is all about religion.

Probably.

A few years back I read a newspaper political analysis of American involvement in Israel. According to the writer, it was about political influence. There are nearly as many Jews in the USA as in Israel (About a third of all the world's Jews are in Israel, a third in the USA, and a third in other countries, especially western Europe.). Among those American Jews are a bunch who are very, very wealthy, and who have used their money to buy political influence. They use this power to push the American administration into supporting Israel.

Now, I cannot guarantee that analysis is correct, but it sounds pretty much right to me. if so, then American support of Israel is just another example of dirty politics at work. But it is also religion, because those wealthy Jews are doubtless influenced by religion.

That sounds mostly accurate to me, too, from here in the U.S.

Israel has also, occasionally, been a useful ally, particularly with respect to providing intelligence, but I think that's a decidedly secondary concern.

[Seabass]

It is all about religion.

Probably.

A few years back I read a newspaper political analysis of American involvement in Israel. According to the writer, it was about political influence. There are nearly as many Jews in the USA as in Israel (About a third of all the world's Jews are in Israel, a third in the USA, and a third in other countries, especially western Europe.). Among those American Jews are a bunch who are very, very wealthy, and who have used their money to buy political influence. They use this power to push the American administration into supporting Israel.

Now, I cannot guarantee that analysis is correct, but it sounds pretty much right to me. if so, then American support of Israel is just another example of dirty politics at work. But it is also religion, because those wealthy Jews are doubtless influenced by religion.

Yes! The Jews control America! I'm surprised it took seven pages though.


I'm sure America's support of Israel has nothing to do with the fact that it was partially (emphasis on "partially") responsible for Israel's creation. Nor could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that despite all its flaws, Israel is still a fuckin' democracy. And never mind the fact that Israel is a tiny nation surrounded on all sides by a sea of hostile, theocratic, dictatorships that want nothing more than to finish what Hitler started and put an end to the Jewish menace once and for all by way of genocide.

Nah, can't be any of that. Clearly, the Jews control America!

[Thumpalumpacus]

And that's exactly where you are wrong.
The Palestinians are fighting a war to defend their country and people from an invasion. The Israelis are an occupying force, murdering civilians as a deterrent, to intimidate and pacify the indigenous people.

That's why the Palestinians are NOT committing murder, and the Israelis ARE.

So suicide bombers are attacking military objectives? Rocket attacks are aimed at combatants?

What are they "defending" with those attacks?

Your simplistic picture, that both parties are immoral, is worthy of any housewife who's just picked up the paper, and only read the headline. And to say that ten deaths are no worse than one is just a joke. I hope.

Call me crazy, but I hold that morality and mathematics are two different areas of knowledge.

Nope, maybe you're right. Maybe I can't read. I've tried a few times with that, and I still haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Yeah, I figured that already, but thanks for confirming.