Conditions ripe for uprising across America

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by JimC » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:20 pm

Seth wrote:

And now you understand why the rest of us find it necessary to arm ourselves against violent insurrectionists and to use force to suppress "G20 protests" which are actually programmed Marxist violence intended to foment overthrow of the government.
That is so absurdly over the top. Yes, there have been outbreaks of destructive behaviour by a relatively small number of violent anarchists operating within larger, relatively non-violent leftist protests at many world economic meetings. The police have been caught out at times, but in most cases have answered the violence with effective police action, including baton charges etc., which is a perfectly reasonable response; it should be aimed at arresting and charging the idiots for wilful damage etc. If the Marxist element has indeed stated that their aim is to "foment overthrow of the government" then they are merely demonstrating their own totally unrealistic, romantic delusions...

This is what we pay a police force to do, and in the main, they do a fair job. (in situations where their actions are unreasonable, they should of course face punitive action)

What we don't need is some half-arsed Rambo style militia adding to the chaos...
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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by sandinista » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:28 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

And now you understand why the rest of us find it necessary to arm ourselves against violent insurrectionists and to use force to suppress "G20 protests" which are actually programmed Marxist violence intended to foment overthrow of the government.
That is so absurdly over the top. Yes, there have been outbreaks of destructive behaviour by a relatively small number of violent anarchists operating within larger, relatively non-violent leftist protests at many world economic meetings. The police have been caught out at times, but in most cases have answered the violence with effective police action, including baton charges etc., which is a perfectly reasonable response; it should be aimed at arresting and charging the idiots for wilful damage etc. If the Marxist element has indeed stated that their aim is to "foment overthrow of the government" then they are merely demonstrating their own totally unrealistic, romantic delusions...

This is what we pay a police force to do, and in the main, they do a fair job. (in situations where their actions are unreasonable, they should of course face punitive action)

What we don't need is some half-arsed Rambo style militia adding to the chaos...
Doc tonight on the police violence on canadian state television:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/

Their responses were anything but reasonable. There is nothing "unrealistic or romantic" about the overthrowing of a government. Has been done numerous times throughout history and will continue to happen in the future. The terms "unrealistic and romantic" have been used ad nauseum to discredit any and every social/political movement in history...nothing new, adds nothing to the debate.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:22 pm

Sandi - I'd like to go through the whole post that you quoted, but it really isn't to the point. The fact still remains that there aren't many people living in the US who are willing to drop themselves down a notch. They're all for equality when it means others get to live good, too. That makes them feel better - it's good to want good things for other people. But, like I said, tell them that they can't have A/C anymore, and you'll not have many takers.

One point stood out in the blurb you posted -- "U.S. Census Bureau data, released a report in December 1997 showing that in the last two decades "incomes of the richest fifth increased by 30 percent or nearly $27,000 after adjusting for inflation." The average income of the top 20 percent was $117,500, or almost 13 times larger than the $9,250 average income of the poorest 20 percent."

These figures are meaningless when taken in a vacuum. Is it really bad that the average income of the top 20 percent was $117,500 which is 13 times larger than the $9,250 of the poorest 20%? Who says the income earners making $9,250 on average are even "poor?" That's $5 an hour, Sandi. Less than minimum wage for a 40 hour week - which means that they are part time workers, or workers who only worked part of the year. A huge portion of them are probably students.

Should students working part time in college earn $117,000? Or, should people not be able to earn $117,000 a year because students work part time for $10 an hour? I mean - some of this is just the reality of living in a reasonably fair society. Sure, there are probably inequities, Sandi. But, it would be MONUMENTALLY inequitable to make a physician earn the same money -- even the same money per hour - as a kid flipping burgers. I think most folks would see it that way.

I think if we looked at the demographics of who earns the $117,000 (doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, models, actors, builders and skilled tradesmen working overtime, etc.) and who makes $9,250 a year (part time stock clerks, part time mcdonald's workers, people who quit in April, etc.), I think we'd find it wasn't as bad as your article paints the numbers.

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Atheist-Lite » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:41 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Sandi - I'd like to go through the whole post that you quoted, but it really isn't to the point. The fact still remains that there aren't many people living in the US who are willing to drop themselves down a notch. They're all for equality when it means others get to live good, too. That makes them feel better - it's good to want good things for other people. But, like I said, tell them that they can't have A/C anymore, and you'll not have many takers.

One point stood out in the blurb you posted -- "U.S. Census Bureau data, released a report in December 1997 showing that in the last two decades "incomes of the richest fifth increased by 30 percent or nearly $27,000 after adjusting for inflation." The average income of the top 20 percent was $117,500, or almost 13 times larger than the $9,250 average income of the poorest 20 percent."

These figures are meaningless when taken in a vacuum. Is it really bad that the average income of the top 20 percent was $117,500 which is 13 times larger than the $9,250 of the poorest 20%? Who says the income earners making $9,250 on average are even "poor?" That's $5 an hour, Sandi. Less than minimum wage for a 40 hour week - which means that they are part time workers, or workers who only worked part of the year. A huge portion of them are probably students.

Should students working part time in college earn $117,000? Or, should people not be able to earn $117,000 a year because students work part time for $10 an hour? I mean - some of this is just the reality of living in a reasonably fair society. Sure, there are probably inequities, Sandi. But, it would be MONUMENTALLY inequitable to make a physician earn the same money -- even the same money per hour - as a kid flipping burgers. I think most folks would see it that way.

I think if we looked at the demographics of who earns the $117,000 (doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, models, actors, builders and skilled tradesmen working overtime, etc.) and who makes $9,250 a year (part time stock clerks, part time mcdonald's workers, people who quit in April, etc.), I think we'd find it wasn't as bad as your article paints the numbers.
It's all in dollars though isn't it? :hilarious:
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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:45 pm

What do you mean?

Sometimes I think you purposefully try to be unclear about what it is you're actually arguing. It makes you sound like someone just bitching for the sake of bitching.

Should students in college earn $117,000 a year? Or, should people not be able to earn $117,000 a year because others don't? Should doctors and fry cooks make the same wage?

If we can focus on specifics, it would be helpful.

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by PsychoSerenity » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:42 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Sandi - I'd like to go through the whole post that you quoted, but it really isn't to the point. The fact still remains that there aren't many people living in the US who are willing to drop themselves down a notch. They're all for equality when it means others get to live good, too. That makes them feel better - it's good to want good things for other people. But, like I said, tell them that they can't have A/C anymore, and you'll not have many takers.

One point stood out in the blurb you posted -- "U.S. Census Bureau data, released a report in December 1997 showing that in the last two decades "incomes of the richest fifth increased by 30 percent or nearly $27,000 after adjusting for inflation." The average income of the top 20 percent was $117,500, or almost 13 times larger than the $9,250 average income of the poorest 20 percent."

These figures are meaningless when taken in a vacuum. Is it really bad that the average income of the top 20 percent was $117,500 which is 13 times larger than the $9,250 of the poorest 20%? Who says the income earners making $9,250 on average are even "poor?" That's $5 an hour, Sandi. Less than minimum wage for a 40 hour week - which means that they are part time workers, or workers who only worked part of the year. A huge portion of them are probably students.

Should students working part time in college earn $117,000? Or, should people not be able to earn $117,000 a year because students work part time for $10 an hour? I mean - some of this is just the reality of living in a reasonably fair society. Sure, there are probably inequities, Sandi. But, it would be MONUMENTALLY inequitable to make a physician earn the same money -- even the same money per hour - as a kid flipping burgers. I think most folks would see it that way.

I think if we looked at the demographics of who earns the $117,000 (doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, models, actors, builders and skilled tradesmen working overtime, etc.) and who makes $9,250 a year (part time stock clerks, part time mcdonald's workers, people who quit in April, etc.), I think we'd find it wasn't as bad as your article paints the numbers.
Did you actually read it? It's quite specifically NOT about those earning $117,500.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Ian » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:53 pm

A graphic for this thread to chew on:
inequality-page25_actualdistribwithlegend.png
inequality-page25_actualdistribwithlegend.png (7.03 KiB) Viewed 336 times

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:32 am

sandinista wrote:

Their responses were anything but reasonable. There is nothing "unrealistic or romantic" about the overthrowing of a government. Has been done numerous times throughout history and will continue to happen in the future. The terms "unrealistic and romantic" have been used ad nauseum to discredit any and every social/political movement in history...nothing new, adds nothing to the debate.
1. Where there are cases of unreasonable police violence, then the media should go into overdrive with good investigative reporting, courts should act, and some high-profile left-leaning lawyers should do some pro-bono work. At least for a lot of cases, that has tended to happen in Australia. Police have the right to use reasonable force; force against peaceful protests here tends to be limited to dragging people away from disruptive sit-ins (a tactic I think is reasonable, BTW...). If demonstators are trashing buildings etc., then the level of force that would be considered reasonable goes up accordingly. If police violence in inappropriate circumstances is prevalent in Canada, then a mass movement, involving many elements within society, could well instigate change, if done cleverly. Such changes are possible!

2. The appeal to past examples of overthrowing governments should be done with great care. In the cases it worked, it was invariably against a government that would not allow change by normal (ie democratic) means, and kept hold of autocratic power by force majeure. In such cases, it may well be that armed struggle is the only possible alternative. However, we are not living in royalist France, the Czar's Russia, Batista's Cuba or any number of other dictatorships in the past. Only a small minority in western countries want radical change, and an even smaller number of those would accept violent means to achieve it. However, a significant number, that could easily become a majority with intelligent campaigning, want real but measured change, in both areas of the environment, and social justice. Radicals often affect a curious pessimism about this sort of pragmatic change; it's all too hard, apparently...
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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Seth » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:41 am

sandinista wrote:Marx's prediction about the growing gap between rich and poor still haunts the land--and the entire planet. The growing concentration of wealth creates still more poverty. As some few get ever richer, more people fall deeper into destitution, finding it increasingly difficult to emerge from it. The same pattern holds throughout much of the world. For years now, as the wealth of the few has been growing, the number of poor has been increasing at a faster rate than the earth's population. A rising tide sinks many boats.
This is where the whole Marxist argument falls apart. The paragraph above is complete, utter bullshit of the highest order.

The fact that Bill Gates is the richest man on the planet not only does not cause people to "fall deeper in to destitution," exactly the opposite is true. This is because unlike the fallacious and ignorant Marxist presumption that "wealth" is a limited pile of money and when the "rich" take more the "poor" get less, the opposite is true. It's known as the "Marxist Zero-sum Fallacy," and it's what makes Marx's entire ideology one giant steaming pile of horseshit.

In reality, wealth is practically unlimited, and "the rich" don't take piles of cash and stuff them under their beds, thereby taking wealth out of circulation and denying the benefits of that wealth to others. What they actually do is use that wealth to create products, businesses, industries and jobs. In point of fact, a rising economic tide raises all ships, including those who do not directly participate in a rising economy, like the victims of shithole totalitarians, socialists and Marxist despots. This occurs because the greater the wealth circulating in the economy, the lower the costs of goods, the more selection, the more widely they are distributed, and the more disposable income those in relatively wealthy nations have to dedicate towards helping the poor in shithole tyrannies like Africa and even Venezuela.

The fact that Bill gates CONTROLS great wealth does not mean that he's denying wealth to others. In fact, he is ultimately responsible for the direct and indirect employment of hundred of thousands of people all across the world and a good deal of economic prosperity and something like 40 billion dollars in charity from his own pocket.

And THAT is how economics actually works, not the as the idiotic, ideological, propagandistic lies and idiocy of brainless Marxist dupes suggest it does.
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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by sandinista » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:57 am

Ian wrote:A graphic for this thread to chew on:
inequality-page25_actualdistribwithlegend.png
interesting chart...thanks.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by sandinista » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:30 am

devogue wrote:
sandinista wrote:hiphop artists
:coffeespray:
Just saw some mainstream rap on tv, and, really, you can't be blamed for thinking that shit is...well shit. Like most forms of music, don't judge the style by the corporate rip off of the style.


Uh, who shot Biggie Smalls
If we don't get them
They gonna get us all
I'm down for runnin' up on them
Crackers in they city hall
We ride for y'all
All my dogs stay real
Nigga don't think these record deals
Gonna feed your seeds
And pay your bills because they not
MC's get a little bit of love and think they hot
Talkin' 'bout how much money they got
Nigga all y'all records sound the same
I sick of that fake thug, R & B
Rap scenario all day on the radio
Same scenes in the video, monotonous material
Y'all don't here me though
These record labels slang our tapes like dope
You can be next in line, and signed
And still be writing rhymes and broke
You would rather have a Lexus or justice
A dream or some substance
A Beamer, a necklace or freedom
Still a nigga like me don't playa' hate
I just stay awake
This real hip-hop, and it don't stop
'Til we get the po-po off the block
They call it
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Robert_S » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:46 am

Here's one that has an appeal across political lines, a father's song for his daughter.


You know you're my cookie baby and you're too smart
I can see it in the lines of your school art
True heart
I mean courage
Expressed with care
Go on draw them superheroes with the curly hair
You're my daughter
My love
More than kin to me
This for you and the woman that you finna be
Tell that boy he's wrong
Girls are strong
Next time at show and tell play him our song
Tell your teacher I said princesses are evil
How they got all they money was they killed people
If somebody hits you
Hit 'em back
Then negotiate a peace contract
Life if a challenge and you gotta team up
If you play house pretend that the man clean up
You too busy with the other things you gotta do
If you start something, now
Remember, follow through
Later on you gon' blossom like a lotus
You'll get into boys and the boys gon' notice
It don't matter who you do it with
Just remember when I tell you baby you the shit
Handshakes are promises
Lies can spoil it
Words should be bond and seal
Wash you hands after using the toilet
Brush after every meal
And also

*Chorus*
Wear clean draws
Everyday
'cuz things may fall
The wrong way
You'll be lying there
Waiting' for the ambulance
And your underwear
Got holes and shit

Wear clean draws
Everyday
'cuz things may fall
The wrong way
You'll be lying there
Waiting' for the ambulance
And your underwear
Got holes and shit

Pam can I get a little scratch right here?
(yeeah)
Pam can I get a little scratch right here?
(oh yeah)
Pam can I get a little scratch right here?
(yeeah)
Pam can I get a little scratch right there?
(oh yeah)

My boogie baby now
The world ain't no fairy tale
And it's ran by some rich white scary males
To make it simple for you let's call 'em the bosses
They take money while the people take losses
Stole Black folds from Africa
To work for free
And we still barely get paid enough to eat
That's what I told you
I be saying in my vocals
That's why the woman got the gun on the logo
The star is the future
That we gon' create
Where nobody steal money from the things we make
The revolution takes time and space
But you as a woman gotta know you're place
That's in the front baby
I'm being blunt baby
If the get mad say it's they time of the month baby
Your face is just like the sun when it raises
Thank you for adding beauty to my phrases
Handshakes are promises
Lies can spoil it
Words should be bond and seal
Wash your hands after using the toilet
Brush after every meal
And also

*Chorus*
Wear clean draws
Everyday
'cuz things may fall
The wrong way
You'll be lying there
Waiting' for the ambulance
And your underwear
Got holes and shit

Wear clean draws
Everyday
'cuz things may fall
The wrong way
You'll be lying there
Waiting' for the ambulance
And your underwear
Got holes and shit

Pam can I get a little scratch right here?
(yeeah)
Pam can I get a little scratch right here?
(oh yeah)
Pam can I get a little scratch right here?
(yeeah)
Pam can I get a little scratch right there?
(oh yeah)

Clap yo hands
Clap yo hands
Clap yo hands
Clap yo hands
Clap yo hands
Clap yo hands
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:20 am

Ian wrote:A graphic for this thread to chew on:

Image
It gets even more extreme when you look at the percentiles right at the top:
Top 1% owns more than 90% of us combined. "In 2007, the latest year for which figures are available from the Federal Reserve Board, the richest 1% of U.S. households owned 33.8% of the nation’s private wealth. That’s more than the combined wealth of the bottom 90 percent." (Also from the Working Group on Extreme Inequality)

400 people have as much wealth as half of our population. The combined net worth of the Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans in 2007: $1.5 trillion. The combined net worth of the poorest 50% of American households: $1.6 trillion.

Image

Corporate wealth is also personal wealth. When you hear about corporations doing well, think about this chart:

Image

The top 1% also own 50.9% of all stocks, bonds, and mutual fund assets. The top 10% own 90.3%.
http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2011020 ... wealth-gap
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Seth » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:04 pm

Psychoserenity wrote:
Ian wrote:A graphic for this thread to chew on:


It gets even more extreme when you look at the percentiles right at the top:
Top 1% owns more than 90% of us combined. "In 2007, the latest year for which figures are available from the Federal Reserve Board, the richest 1% of U.S. households owned 33.8% of the nation’s private wealth. That’s more than the combined wealth of the bottom 90 percent." (Also from the Working Group on Extreme Inequality)

400 people have as much wealth as half of our population. The combined net worth of the Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans in 2007: $1.5 trillion. The combined net worth of the poorest 50% of American households: $1.6 trillion.



Corporate wealth is also personal wealth. When you hear about corporations doing well, think about this chart:


The top 1% also own 50.9% of all stocks, bonds, and mutual fund assets. The top 10% own 90.3%.
Again, this is Marxist propaganda, as I explained below.

Now examine the standard of living for the bottom 90 percent in 1930 versus the standard of living for the bottom 90 percent now. What you will find is that lo and behold, everybody has a higher standard of living and more disposable income than they did before.

And if you want to buy stocks, bonds and mutual funds, then by all means do so.

Income inequality as complained about by you is meaningless propaganda, except to Marxists. What actually matters is that people have the opportunity to improve their economic situation in a free market economy, while people in a collectivist economy like socialism, do not. And once the redistribution of OPM stops, all socialist societies quickly fail and chaos and death follow.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Conditions ripe for uprising across America

Post by Gawd » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:58 pm

I propose we have a day of rage and go loot those that have a billion dollars or more.

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