Gabrielle Giffords Shot

[mistermack]

Since it is very difficult to wrap our minds around how someone could commit such a crime, and how such madness can be stopped.......

Fuck me Coito, you speak for yourself! I have no trouble wrapping MY mind round that, thanks very much!!

[maiforpeace]

Last point - within hours of the shooting - maybe within minutes of the shooting - we had causal attributions to Tea Partiers and Sarah Palin and others....some of the first comments I heard were to the effect of "see! this is what we get with 'this kind' of rhetoric." Yet, I can't seem to locate any specificity. the actual quotes they're talking about. What did these folks say - what are some examples - of what is considered an "incitement?" My guess is that a quote by Tea Partiers and Sarah Palin advocating violence is hard to come by. I doubt they did advocate violence or call for violence. The argument will be, IMHO, that it's their "overall tone" - and their "implicit message" - that arises out of their vociferous opposition to certain government policies or proposals that "creates an atmosphere" conducive to this kind of violence arising...

Sharron Angle:

"Our founding fathers put the second amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. In fact, Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years. I hope that's not where we're going, but if this congress keeps on going the way it is, people are really looking towards those second amendment remedies and they're saying my goodness, what can we do to turn this country around? And I'll tell you, the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."

"The nation is arming, what are they arming for, if it isn't that they are so distrustful of their government? They're afraid they'll have to fight for their liberty in more second amendment types of ways. That's why I look at this almost as an imperative...if we don't win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?"

And there's more where that came from...

Whether or not he was incited by rhetoric doesn't mean that rhetoric isn't out there and shouldn't be toned down...even Ms. Gifford made the call for more reasonable discourse a number of times in her own speeches and comments.

Gabrielle Gifford:

"We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list. The thing is, the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun site over our district. [When] people do that they've got to realize there are consequences to that action."

The huge difference between Keith Ollberman and his crosshairs map is that Gabrielle Gifford wasn't on his map, nor was she one of the two people of several on Palin's map who defeated the Tea Party opponent.

It also makes more sense that the shooter would have aligned himself with the Tea Party if he also aligned himself with the group American Renaissance. (which has been suggested by the DHS)

[Coito ergo sum]

Since it is very difficult to wrap our minds around how someone could commit such a crime, and how such madness can be stopped.......

Fuck me Coito, you speak for yourself! I have no trouble wrapping MY mind round that, thanks very much!!

I was speaking about those who feel the need to come up with extraneous "causes" for why Loughlin did this. That's who the "we" is. Sorry for the confusion - I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything.

People who want to suggest that someone's "uncivil" rhetoric caused Loughlin to do this is looking for an easy answer. How can we keep this from happening again? Just "tone down the rhetoric." That way the Loughlins of the world will not go on murder rampages. Right?

[Coito ergo sum]

Last point - within hours of the shooting - maybe within minutes of the shooting - we had causal attributions to Tea Partiers and Sarah Palin and others....some of the first comments I heard were to the effect of "see! this is what we get with 'this kind' of rhetoric." Yet, I can't seem to locate any specificity. the actual quotes they're talking about. What did these folks say - what are some examples - of what is considered an "incitement?" My guess is that a quote by Tea Partiers and Sarah Palin advocating violence is hard to come by. I doubt they did advocate violence or call for violence. The argument will be, IMHO, that it's their "overall tone" - and their "implicit message" - that arises out of their vociferous opposition to certain government policies or proposals that "creates an atmosphere" conducive to this kind of violence arising...

Sharron Angle:

"Our founding fathers put the second amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. In fact, Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years. I hope that's not where we're going, but if this congress keeps on going the way it is, people are really looking towards those second amendment remedies and they're saying my goodness, what can we do to turn this country around? And I'll tell you, the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."

"The nation is arming, what are they arming for, if it isn't that they are so distrustful of their government? They're afraid they'll have to fight for their liberty in more second amendment types of ways. That's why I look at this almost as an imperative...if we don't win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?"

And there's more where that came from...

So what? Is there any reason to think that Loughlin even heard or read Angle's statement? And, is there any reason to think he was motivated by it? Teh fact of the matter is: the 2nd Amd was put in the Constitution "for a good reason" and part of that reason was for the protection of the people against a tyrannical government. So what? That's been the case for 225 years. And, Thomas Jefferson did say that it would be good for the country to have a revolution every 20 years. Was Loughlin motivated to kill by Thomas Jefferson?

If Loughlin was motivated by that Sharon Angle quote, then why didn't he shoot Harry Reid? Why shoot a pro-gun rights, gun owning, Blue Dog Democrat?

But, again - there is nothing to show that Loughlin had any sympathy at all for Sharon Angle. In fact, his friends said he was a "left wing pothead" and had "radical" opinions. He was also noted by classmates to be scary, and to arbitrarily raise questions in class at college about "mind control." One friend said he had an unusual concern with 2012 prophecies. And, his writings showed him to be anti-religious and concerned about the In God We Trust on the money and Bibles. Surely, that's not Tea Party stuff?

Point being - even if we assumed for the sake of argument that Angle's comments could "incite" someone to violence - the question here is "did it incite LOUGHLIN to violence?" What evidence is there for that? Wouldn't we at least want to establish that he even heard it/read it and sympathized with it? From what I've read, he would be just as likely to shoot Sharon Angle in the head as Rep. Giffords and Judge Roll. Judge Roll was a Bush Republican appointee. And, the fucker shot a little girl and several other people.

Whether or not he was incited by rhetoric doesn't mean that rhetoric isn't out there and shouldn't be toned down...even Ms. Gifford made the call for more reasonable discourse a number of times in her own speeches and comments.

The fact of the matter is, what we consider discourse that should be "toned down" today, is actually already toned down from what we had in the past. It used to be quite common to burn politicians in effigy. Imagine that today? Speaker Boehnor or Fmr. Spkr Pelosi being hoisted up with a noose around his or her neck and set ablaze symbolically?

Gabrielle Gifford:

"We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list. The thing is, the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun site over our district. [When] people do that they've got to realize there are consequences to that action."

The huge difference between Keith Ollberman and his crosshairs map is that Gabrielle Gifford wasn't on his map, nor was she one of the two people of several on Palin's map who defeated the Tea Party opponent.

But, there is nothing at all to indicate that Loughlin was motivated by anything but being deranged.

It also makes more sense that the shooter would have aligned himself with the Tea Party if he also aligned himself with the group American Renaissance. (which has been suggested by the DHS)

I hadn't heard anything about a link to American Rennaissance. His friend was on MSNBC and stated explicitly that he was an extreme left wing radical - very liberal with a weird concern with 2012 prophecy. Some of Loughlin's own writings have been released in the media, too, and nothing seems remotely "Tea Party" about his screeds. He sounds more like the Unabomber - conspiracy nutter with his own version of logic that renders his writings virtually incomprehensible.

I did a quick search on the connection to American Renaissance: According to the DailyKos, it starts with Gretawire. Greta Van Susteren of Fox News refers to some notes she received from a colleage of hers at Fox News Channel, Jennifer Griffin. Jennifer Griffin claims the notes are a summation of intelligence the Department of Homeland Security has amassed on the shooter. DHS, however, has not confirmed that at all, nor has DHS made that suggestion themselves. http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/late ... z1AYxb5SFy - nobody else has yet confirmed any of that.

[Coito ergo sum]

Jared Lee Loughner - in his own words - [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... HoaZaLbqB4[/youtube]
Raving psychotic....

Loughner links: http://politisite.com/2011/01/08/arizon ... and-video/


I

If there’s no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There’s no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; “What’s your illegal activity on duty?”.
If you protest the government then there’s a new government from protesting.
There’s not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren’t protesting the government.
There’s something important in this video: There’s no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn’t be afraid of the stars.
There’s a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there’s no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It’s with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there’s only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

Books:

I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno. (source Youtube)

[Atheist-Lite]

Jared Lee Loughner - in his own words - [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... HoaZaLbqB4[/youtube]
Raving psychotic....

Loughner links: http://politisite.com/2011/01/08/arizon ... and-video/


I

If there’s no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There’s no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; “What’s your illegal activity on duty?”.
If you protest the government then there’s a new government from protesting.
There’s not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren’t protesting the government.
There’s something important in this video: There’s no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn’t be afraid of the stars.
There’s a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there’s no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It’s with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there’s only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

Books:

I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno. (source Youtube)

Just seems like a ordinary American rambling on about flags and other nonsense from over here. The British don't have any national pride, certainly none in our flag.

[Coito ergo sum]

Jared Lee Loughner - in his own words - [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... HoaZaLbqB4[/youtube]
Raving psychotic....

Loughner links: http://politisite.com/2011/01/08/arizon ... and-video/


I

If there’s no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There’s no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; “What’s your illegal activity on duty?”.
If you protest the government then there’s a new government from protesting.
There’s not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren’t protesting the government.
There’s something important in this video: There’s no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn’t be afraid of the stars.
There’s a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there’s no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It’s with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there’s only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

Books:

I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno. (source Youtube)

Just seems like a ordinary American rambling on about flags and other nonsense from over here. The British don't have any national pride, certainly none in our flag.

LOL - if that sounds like normal rambling to you, then please head down to the NHS for some free mental health care....

[Atheist-Lite]

Jared Lee Loughner - in his own words - [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... HoaZaLbqB4[/youtube]
Raving psychotic....

Loughner links: http://politisite.com/2011/01/08/arizon ... and-video/


I

If there’s no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There’s no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; “What’s your illegal activity on duty?”.
If you protest the government then there’s a new government from protesting.
There’s not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren’t protesting the government.
There’s something important in this video: There’s no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn’t be afraid of the stars.
There’s a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there’s no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It’s with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there’s only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

Books:

I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno. (source Youtube)

Just seems like a ordinary American rambling on about flags and other nonsense from over here. The British don't have any national pride, certainly none in our flag.

LOL - if that sounds like normal rambling to you, then please head down to the NHS for some free mental health care....

Normal for Americans I didn't say anything about the rest of the world. Their 15 trillion cubits off the map and still going.....just look at their foreign policies?

[Coito ergo sum]

[
Normal for Americans I didn't say anything about the rest of the world. Their 15 trillion cubits off the map and still going.....just look at their foreign policies?

This post of yours does sound eerily Jared Loughner-esque.... a tad scary, actually.

[PsychoSerenity]

Interesting book list he's got there.

[Atheist-Lite]

[
Normal for Americans I didn't say anything about the rest of the world. Their 15 trillion cubits off the map and still going.....just look at their foreign policies?

This post of yours does sound eerily Jared Loughner-esque.... a tad scary, actually.

Is it the dalek? I've got more of them on Skaro!

[Coito ergo sum]

Loughner family barricades their house.... http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... 10-ON.html

The article makes it sound like they were purposefully blocking the FBI - but, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they were protecting themselves from possible visits by other folks.... we'll see what they do... plus, if the FBI didn't have a warrant, then then they don't have carte blanche to enter the home anyway. The article, of course, as journalists almost always do, left out the important detail - did the FBI have a warrant when they claim they were "blocked..."?

[Coito ergo sum]

Federal officials released Loughner's mug shot, showing him smiling into the camera despite hints of a black eye.

"Yes, I am Jared Lee Loughner," said Loughner, with a freshly shaved head, when the Judge Lawrence Anderson asked him to confirm his identity.

Holding up a financial affidavit, Anderson asked the Loughner, "I can't read your signature. I know how hard it is to sign with handcuffs on. Did you sign this?"

Loughner, with a fresh bruise on the side of his head, leaned forward to look at the paper and responded, ""Yes I signed it. Mrs. Clarke did help me out." Mrs. Clarke refers to his court appointed public defender, Judy Clarke.

Every federal judge in the southern district of Arizona recused themselves from the case because one of Loughran's alleged victims was federal judge John Roll.

Clarke said that she objects to "further proceedings in Arizona" on behalf of Loughner, but did not object to her client being remanded without bail. The judge told the courtroom that Loughner was a "danger to the community" before saying, "Good to you" and adjourning the session.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner ... d=12580344

[Coito ergo sum]

Loughner attended Mountain View High School in Tucson, Ariz., where a classmate remembered him as a "good person." But longtime friend Tong Shan told ABC News, "He just somehow changed so much, I don't know what the hell happened to him." Lydian Ali, who took an advanced poetry class at Pima Community College with the suspect, said Loughner would often speak out or laugh at inappropriate times. "A girl had written a poem about an abortion. It was very emotional, and she was teary eyed, and he said something about strapping a bomb to the fetus and making a baby bomber," Ali said.

[Coito ergo sum]

Jared Lee Loughner was a registered independent, didn't vote in 2010 election http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix ... regis.html