The Hillary-thread

Locked
User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Forty Two » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:56 pm

DRSB wrote:
For die-hard Democrats holding out hope that they won’t have to live through a Trump presidency, there is a last, incredibly long shot for them latch on to — a surprise twist in the Electoral College.

Though Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 200,000, Trump has won the minimum of 270 electoral votes necessary to be elected president. As of late Wednesday, he had 290 to Clinton’s 228.
SEE ALSO
Electoral College voter backs off threat of voting for Clinton
Electoral College voter backs off threat of voting for Clinton

According to the Constitution, chosen electors of the Electoral College are the real people who will vote for president, when they meet on Dec. 19 in their respective state capitals.

However, there is technically nothing stopping any of the electors from voting their conscience and refusing to support the candidate to whom they were bound, or from abstaining from voting altogether.

There’s even a name for it: becoming a “faithless elector.”
http://nypost.com/2016/11/09/the-one-sc ... ite-house/
I'm not surprised that journalists never fail to misrepresent matters of law, to about the same extent they typically misrepresent matters of science. I don't know if it's that they're stupid -- I suspect it is, but I can't be sure. Journalism is not a field that gets the best and brightest anymore, unfortunately.

To say that there is "technically nothing" stopping any of the electors from voting their conscience is, well, just flat out wrong. The authority and obligations of electors are governed by the laws of the state they represent. Both Michigan and Minnesota have laws that say a faithless elector's vote is void. So, Hillary cannot flip the 16 electors from Michigan.

Twenty-nine states have laws against faithless electors, some imposing fines and criminal penalties. So, for Clinton to flip electors, she has to look to the states and how they punish electors who flip.

Also, it's not a given that if electors decide to flip in numbers never before seen, such that the election is threatened, that some electors won't flip the other way. One elector, before the election took place, a native American named Robert Satiacum, said he would never cast his vote for Clinton. I think he withdrew that threat. But, if electors start to send out signals about voting for Clinton when pledged for Trump, I suspect Mr. Satiacum will give it some thought too.

Trump is not the only candidate that electors may not wish to vote for....sometimes Clinton supporters forget that a lot of people don't like their candidate.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Forty Two » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:16 pm

mistermack wrote:America has a stupid system. So-called checks and balances are a recipe for inaction and any loony having a chance of winning the white house.
Well, typically, when one looks at a complex system and declares it "stupid" it's very likely that one does not really understand it.

America's system is different than the European parliamentary systems, but that doesn't make it stupid. The major systems all function on some manner of separation of powers, designed to distribute power rather than centralize it. That's the overarching concept, together with each center of government power being limited or balanced in some way, so that they can't simply act with carte blanche.

In the US, the system conceptually has a legislative department, which is the Congress (House and Senate), to make laws, declares war, and such. The judicial department, which rules on cases and controversies, and the executive department, which enforces the laws and acts as commander in chief of the armed forces and such. And, there is push and pull among these separate-but-equal branches of the government. The laws are made by the Congress, and the judiciary makes sure the laws are applied in conformity with the constitution, and the executive branch enforces them. Over the years, it's gotten a bit more complex with a de facto fourth branch, which is the administrative branch, resulting from the legislature delegating rulemaking authority to the executive branch -- like with taxation - congress taxes and spends and makes the tax laws, but it has delegated the authority to the executive branch to make rules and regulations governing the nuts and bolts of the tax system.

The President is elected by the States, who send electors to vote for the President on December 19. The popular vote is taken and utilized as the states see fit. Technically, a state could make the popular vote advisory, and have the legislators in a given state decide who the states electors will support, or it could simply let the electors do as they please.

That's the way it's always been, and there is nothing "stupid" about that. Think of your own Parliamentary system. You don't even get to vote for your Prime Minister, at all, which is the head of the government having most of the powers that our President has. You have a Queen as head of state, but that's largely a figurehead position. The power really lies in the PM. But you don't vote for him or her. You vote for your member of parliament (equivalent of our Congressmen and women), and then they choose the Prime Minister. So, if we were to switch to a system like yours, we would just continue to have the people vote for their Senators and Representatives in Congress, and then those elected legislators would choose the President like the Prime Minister is chosen. Would that be "smart?"
mistermack wrote:
We've had the inaction, now we have the loony.

And a loony elected by less votes than his opponent. It's a nasty situation, where one half of the country now hates the other half.
Hey, so what? You have a system over there, where a guy can be prime minister without anyone in the country having a say over it, except those in his district or riding. He gets to be PM because he holds sway within his party, and his party gets more seats in the House of Commons.

Do you think that none of your prime ministers would lose a direct election, if the people got to vote directly for him or her to serve in that post? Hardly.

And, the electoral college system is created in the US to acknowledge that we live in a federal system. People don't like to think of it this way, but it's like separate countries in the EU. Each US state has a head of state, called a governor, and there is a legislative branch which makes laws and a state court judicial system to interpret and apply them. There is federalism, in that the states have power and authority over matters not delegated to the federal government. So, the equal dignity of each state, big or small, is recognized by affording each state 2 electors, equal to the number of senators it gets. The remainder of the electors are based on a proportional share of the total population. So, the popular vote is recognized by that proportional share, but the existence of the states is recognized by the 2 electors each gets. It's like our Congress (parliament) - we have an upper house called the Senate, and each state, big or small, gets 2 Senators. The House of representatives (like the house of commons) is based on population, so California has many representatives, and Wyoming only a small number, because of the population difference.

This is not "stupid." This is a recognition of the actual structure of the nation. Georgia, Florida, New York, California, Michigan, etc. -- these are not meaningless labels for convenience or so we can have different sports team allegiances. These are legal boundaries with significant meaning. There is sovereignty among these States, who are --by agreement - bound together as one nation, with a federal government that has been given power and authority from the bottom up.
mistermack wrote:
Isn't it funny, that Russia is in a better place, democratically?
Now there's something stupid. Russia is essentially a dictatorship, where the ruling authority is known to killed and jailed political opponents.
mistermack wrote:
It has a popular government and leadership that has the power to do stuff.
Dictators do tend to have the power to get shit done. That kind of power is, however, fleeting.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Forty Two » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:35 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sean Hayden wrote:Yeah, but lets talk about what we're ignoring. All the dumb ass democrats who can't vote unless they can idolize the president.
That's politics folks. In a electoral system that's become litle more than an ongoing reality-tv show the high-branded reality-tv star has the upper hand. People didn't like Clinton - she just didn't seem very real, nor did she seem very nice. But her brand was already dammaged before she even started.
A lot of people didn't vote for her because they thought she was corrupt and a liar. That tends to keep people home. If they also did not want to vote for Trump because he was a crude, rude, xenophobe or something, then staying home is a rational decision. Voting for one or the other is not the only rational choice. If a voter doesn't care which of two assholes is elected, then staying home is a form of voting.

It's not as if people just didn't vote for Clinton because she wasn't idolized. It was more than that. People had real, justifiable concerns about her, just as the people who were "never Trump" believe they had real, justifiable concerns about him. All these folks protesting Trump and crying in their cheerios over the shock of people voting for Trump over Clinton are forgetting a very important fact: A lot of people were as much against Clinton as a lot of other people were against Trump. Some people really fucking opposed Clinton, and for what they believed were good reasons.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Tero
Just saying
Posts: 51240
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 pm
About me: 15-32-25
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Tero » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:52 pm

A lot of people didn't vote because it was like choosing Coke or Pepsi for them.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Forty Two » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:54 pm

Or a giant douche vs. a turd sandwich.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41035
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Svartalf » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:04 pm

Tero wrote:A lot of people didn't vote because it was like choosing Coke or Pepsi for them.
well, they got cherry dr pepper, good luck to them drinking it for 4 years.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60729
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:40 pm

:lol:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Tero
Just saying
Posts: 51240
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 pm
About me: 15-32-25
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Tero » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:42 pm

And they got a douche bag who will give each and every supporter a wedgie.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41035
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Svartalf » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:56 pm

that's what hapens when sheep vote for a wolf
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74151
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:18 pm

Forty Two wrote:

A lot of people didn't vote for her because they thought she was corrupt and a liar. That tends to keep people home. If they also did not want to vote for Trump because he was a crude, rude, xenophobe or something, then staying home is a rational decision. Voting for one or the other is not the only rational choice. If a voter doesn't care which of two assholes is elected, then staying home is a form of voting.
I haven't seen any analysis on voter turn-out compared to previous elections. Was it higher or lower than average, and did more Trump supporters than Trump haters actually vote?
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
laklak
Posts: 21022
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"
Location: Tannhauser Gate
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by laklak » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:27 pm

From initial reports is looks like almost 10,000,000 fewer Democratic voters turned out than in '08 and '12. Republican turnout looks about the same, so the idea that some huge groundswell of white racist farmers appears to be bullshit. Hillary lost because the Democrats didn't bother voting. You snooze, you lose. I've zero sympathy, because there is absolutely no good reason not to vote. Every state has early voting, here in Florida we could vote on almost any day for two weeks prior to the election. Plus you can get a mail ballot, but that requires actually asking for one, takes a whole 5 minutes on the phone. Seems that was just way too hard for the precious snowflakes. But that won't stop them from pissing and moaning and burning other people's property.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

User avatar
Sean Hayden
Microagressor
Posts: 18933
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:55 pm
About me: recovering humanist
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:32 pm

:tea: indeed
I was given a year of free milkshakes once. The year passed and I hadn’t bothered to get even one.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39933
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:25 pm

There was a bloke on the news saying Trump got less votes than McCain or Ronmey.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74151
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:28 pm

laklak wrote:From initial reports is looks like almost 10,000,000 fewer Democratic voters turned out than in '08 and '12. Republican turnout looks about the same, so the idea that some huge groundswell of white racist farmers appears to be bullshit. Hillary lost because the Democrats didn't bother voting. You snooze, you lose. I've zero sympathy, because there is absolutely no good reason not to vote. Every state has early voting, here in Florida we could vote on almost any day for two weeks prior to the election. Plus you can get a mail ballot, but that requires actually asking for one, takes a whole 5 minutes on the phone. Seems that was just way too hard for the precious snowflakes. But that won't stop them from pissing and moaning and burning other people's property.
I think there were probably a fair few Bernie democrats who, while obviously not wanting to vote for Trump, couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hillary, so they stayed home...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Tero
Just saying
Posts: 51240
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 pm
About me: 15-32-25
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Hillary-thread

Post by Tero » Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:24 am

Bill would have been able to feel the pain for white man better than Hillary. He's from a redneck state!
CNN
Democrats close to Bill Clinton said Thursday that one mistake Clinton's top aides made was not listening to the former president more when he urged the campaign to spend more time focusing on disaffected white, working class voters.
Many in Clinton's campaign viewed these voters as Trump's base, people so committed to the Republican nominee that no amount of visits or messaging could sway them. Clinton made no visits to Wisconsin as the Democratic nominee, and only pushed a late charge in Michigan once internal polling showed the race tightening.
Bill Clinton, advisers said, pushed the campaign early on to focus on these voters, many of whom helped elected him twice to the White House. The former president, a Clinton aide said, would regularly call Robby Mook to talk about strategy and offer advice.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests