Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

[Coito ergo sum]

The rural south is not where the gun homicides generally happen.

Then why the need for every man to carry a gun everywhere he goes?

There isn't such a need, nor do the vast majority of "men" carry guns everywhere "he" goes, or even most places "he" goes, in the south. Most people don't carry them around on a daily basis in most places, unless they have a need. People transporting large amounts of money often do. People going to bad neighborhoods often do. But, people going to work at the office downtown, generally don't.

Where is this wild idea you have of gun toting populace walking the streets with spurs a jinglin' and a janglin'?

So the answer to your question is that some people carry guns because they want to have additional protection. Others go to shooting ranges. Others go hunting.

Only about 3 in 10 Americans own guns.

[kiki5711]

mai: Zimmerman had been trained and advised as a neighborhood watch NOT to carry a weapon, yet he ignored his training and carried a weapon, concealed no less. Do you think the Neighborhood Watch Organization just makes those recommendations arbitrarily?

Coito: On what basis do you make that statement? Source? I have never heard he was "trained" not to carry a weapon.

kiki: Because those are the RULES of being a neighborhood watchman.

That doesn't substantiate what Mai wrote. Reread what Mai wrote about Zimmerman having been "trained" to not carry a gun, etc.

\
How does what I wrote differ about zimm being trained NOT to carry a weapon from how mai said it? I'm saying the same thing. Part of the training is educating the volunteer NOT to carry a weapon.
Maybe you should read the posts twice before responding.

[kiki5711]

There isn't such a need, nor do the vast majority of "men" carry guns everywhere "he" goes, or even most places "he" goes, in the south.

from reading your and some other posts, you'd think Florida was in dire need for more guns and laws such as SYG, and now you say there's no such need.

[Coito ergo sum]

mai: Zimmerman had been trained and advised as a neighborhood watch NOT to carry a weapon, yet he ignored his training and carried a weapon, concealed no less. Do you think the Neighborhood Watch Organization just makes those recommendations arbitrarily?

Coito: On what basis do you make that statement? Source? I have never heard he was "trained" not to carry a weapon.

kiki: Because those are the RULES of being a neighborhood watchman.

That doesn't substantiate what Mai wrote. Reread what Mai wrote about Zimmerman having been "trained" to not carry a gun, etc.

\
How does what I wrote differ about zimm being trained NOT to carry a weapon from mai? I'm saying the same thing. Part of the training is educating the volunteer NOT to carry a weapon.
Maybe you should read the posts twice before responding.

Because nothing you cited to says he was trained not to carry a weapon.

I know YOU are saying the same thing, but you rarely, if ever, know what you're talking about. What I asked may wast to SUBSTANTIATE her claim that Zimmerman was trained to not carry a weapon.

I know you and she SAY it. But, that article you posted, well, quite frankly, doesn't say it. It just says that generally those folks think Zimmerman didn't act in conformity with the rules. Where in there does it say that one of those rules he was trained on was to not carry a gun? Answer: it doesn't. You just assume it.

[Coito ergo sum]

There isn't such a need, nor do the vast majority of "men" carry guns everywhere "he" goes, or even most places "he" goes, in the south.

from reading your and some other posts, you'd think Florida was in dire need for more guns and laws such as SYG, and now you say there's no such need.

the "such a need" was referring to your ludicrous question, asking what is the need for men to carry the guns around everywhere they go.

There is no SUCH need.

That doesn't mean there aren't needs for guns. The need you asked about doesn't exist. Of course there isn't a need to carry a gun around everywhere one goes.

And, you can't get some general allegation of a dire need for more guns out of my posts. I don't even own a gun, and I live in Florida. You seem to just take a lack of fear and paranoia about guns as the same as a claim that there is a dire need for more guns. See if you can puzzle out the difference.

And, Stand Your Ground is a good thing. It means that if you're assaulted on the street, your decision to defend yourself is not going to be subjected to 20-20 hindsight if you were reasonably in fear for your life. The fact that you could have, while IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE, have maybe figured a way to retreat, won't be held against you. That way, you don't wind up being put reasonably in fear of your life, and then thrown in jail because someone sitting comfortably months after the fact thinks you might have had other options to sort out in that split second.

[kiki5711]

In South Florida, it's unlikely anyone would have trouble identifying a Citizens on Patrol volunteer, authorities say. COP members in Broward and Palm Beach counties wear uniforms and drive specially marked cruisers, enhancing departments' omnipresence in communities, officials said.

"Our Citizen Observer Patrol is very structured with the volunteers who participate in it," Coleman-Wright said, adding that before volunteers are allowed to participate, they must pass criminal background checks.

Janet Thompson, a longtime resident of Hawaiian Gardens in Lauderdale Lakes, said she is grateful sheriff's COP volunteers patrol her neighborhood. But she said she is glad they're prohibited from carrying firearms.

"You just can't let people carry guns and not be properly trained," Thompson said. "If they're just a neighborhood watch, do they really need one? You just don't really know what they would do with it in an emergency."

Authorities say they are unaware of any residents abruptly and unofficially patrolling areas in their own cars.

South Florida's law enforcement agencies tell their sanctioned Citizens on Patrol volunteer programs, as well as local neighborhood watches: Report suspicious activity to 911. Don't play police officer. Don't pursue.

"They're told not to intervene, only to report suspicious activity," said Broward sheriff's spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright. "They're prohibited from carrying weapons."

what part of "prohibited from carrying weapons" do you NOT understand?

[FBM]

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson

I hesitate to blame anyone entirely for being subjected to the kind of society that inspired that quote from Jesse Jackson. People who don't live in that sort of social environment can easily look at it and place blame on individuals, but individuals don't emerge from a social vacuum. The people who actually live in FL voted to have a legal right to go armed because they are familiar with the local conditions. There are places in the US where I feel perfectly comfortable to go unarmed, and there are other places (the neighborhood where I used to work, east Knoxville, Austin East, for example) where I wouldn't even drive through without at least a handgun, day or night.

Zimmerman had his firearm legally, not criminally. If he made a mistake, it wasn't by going armed in a society where drive-by shootings, car-jackings, drug wars and so forth happen so frequently.

But neither is Martin totally to blame if he was the one who initiated the altercation. He was raised in a society that praises strength and aggression in men, and young men of his age feel a strong drive to prove their manhood, often using violence. Maybe if he'd had better role models?

This sort of thing will continue to happen as long as Hollywood and the music industry continue to propagate a culture of violence. But they'll keep doing that as long as violence sells. Whether they created the market themselves or are just capitalizing on it is an argument for another thread, I imagine.

This makes sense. Do not post here again. This is your final warning!

Sorry. I wasn't thinking. Or, rather, I was. Either way, I promise not to do it again.

[Coito ergo sum]

In South Florida, it's unlikely anyone would have trouble identifying a Citizens on Patrol volunteer, authorities say. COP members in Broward and Palm Beach counties wear uniforms and drive specially marked cruisers, enhancing departments' omnipresence in communities, officials said.

"Our Citizen Observer Patrol is very structured with the volunteers who participate in it," Coleman-Wright said, adding that before volunteers are allowed to participate, they must pass criminal background checks.

Janet Thompson, a longtime resident of Hawaiian Gardens in Lauderdale Lakes, said she is grateful sheriff's COP volunteers patrol her neighborhood. But she said she is glad they're prohibited from carrying firearms.

"You just can't let people carry guns and not be properly trained," Thompson said. "If they're just a neighborhood watch, do they really need one? You just don't really know what they would do with it in an emergency."

Authorities say they are unaware of any residents abruptly and unofficially patrolling areas in their own cars.

South Florida's law enforcement agencies tell their sanctioned Citizens on Patrol volunteer programs, as well as local neighborhood watches: Report suspicious activity to 911. Don't play police officer. Don't pursue.

"They're told not to intervene, only to report suspicious activity," said Broward sheriff's spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright. "They're prohibited from carrying weapons."

what part of "prohibited from carrying weapons" do you NOT understand?

Which part of "Broward County" is in fucking Miami, not near Sanford, Florida, and thus, Zimmerman wasn't trained by them, don't you understand? Therefore, some general statement of what they do in Broward county doesn't mean Zimmerman was trained the same way.

Let's look at the handbook for the Sanford neighborhood watch program.

They're supposed to be the eyes and ears of the neighborhood. They are to watch for suspicious people (check), call the police when they see suspicious people (check), and keep an eye on suspicious people (check). They aren't supposed to go apprehend the person themselves, but of course, we don't have any evidence to show Zimmerman did that.

Suspicious activity is anything that looks like it could be connected with criminal
behavior  someone casing a neighborhood,

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... ndbook.pdf

That sounds like what Zimmerman reported doesn't it?

What are things Sanford "trained" Zimmerman to look for:

Behaving strangely.

Possibly on drugs or illegal activity

Again, sounds a lot like what Zimmerman reported to the police.

Gathering (loitering) for an extended or
unusual period of time.
Possible burglary, arson, or drug dealing

Huh - the loitering bit -- loitering in the rain - kinda like what Zimmerman reported to 911.

Running, especially if carrying something of
value.
Possible suspect fleeing scene of crime.

Running. According to the 911 call, Zimmerman exited his vehicle AFTER Martin started running away.

Code: Select all

Loiters around schools, parks or on your
street.
Possible burglar, sex offense, drugs or arson.

Loitering on the street. Huh -- very much like what Zimmerman reported.

So, take a look at the Sanford Handbook. If you can find anything there that shows that ZIMMERMAN was trained or told to not carry a gun, then that might be relevant. But, if you join a neighborhood watch in one place, with all due respect to Broward County, they aren't the boss of it all. Sanford is in Seminole County.

So, you were saying?

[kiki5711]

Zimmerman's actions were against guidelines followed by countless volunteer programs across the United States, according to the National Sheriffs' Association, a nonprofit which officially launched the Neighborhood Watch Program in 1972.In a recent statement, Aaron D. Kennard, the association's executive director, referred to Zimmerman as a "self-appointed neighborhood watchman" who "significantly contradicts the principles" of watch programs.

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch."The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for, and it resulted in a young man losing his life," Kennard wrote.

Nationwide, about 25,000 watch groups are registered with the sheriffs' association. Other groups are registered with local law enforcement agencies.

More than 3,500 volunteers make up the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol (COP), a program whose aim is reporting suspicious activity. The Broward Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol, with about 1,400 volunteers, shares the same objective.

Volunteers promote safer neighborhoods, serving as "the eyes and ears" of law enforcement, Palm Beach County sheriff's spokeswoman Teri Barbera said. They are told not to engage suspicious people for everyone's safety, she said.

"That's not the purpose of the neighborhood watch," Barbera said. "That's law enforcement's purpose."

In South Florida, it's unlikely anyone would have trouble identifying a Citizens on Patrol volunteer, authorities say. COP members in Broward and Palm Beach counties wear uniforms and drive specially marked cruisers, enhancing departments' omnipresence in communities, officials said.

So, are you saying that rules change from county to county?

(SANFORD, Fla.) -- George Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watchman who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old Florida high school student, last month blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned.

[kiki5711]

Huh - the loitering bit -- loitering in the rain - kinda like what Zimmerman reported to 911.

walking home is loitering?

Possibly on drugs or illegal activity

was martin singing in the rain, flapping his arms, swinging a gun around? how exactly did zimm come to the conclusion that he's possibly on drugs or illegal activity?

Running. According to the 911 call, Zimmerman exited his vehicle AFTER Martin started running away.

Running away from zimmerman, after zimmer gets out of his car and starts pursuing him is considered to you..........exactly what?

So, take a look at the Sanford Handbook

Can you please show me where Sandfor Handbook has different rules than all the other Neighborhood Watch Organization rules.

[Coito ergo sum]

Zimmerman's actions were against guidelines followed by countless volunteer programs across the United States, according to the National Sheriffs' Association, a nonprofit which officially launched the Neighborhood Watch Program in 1972.In a recent statement, Aaron D. Kennard, the association's executive director, referred to Zimmerman as a "self-appointed neighborhood watchman" who "significantly contradicts the principles" of watch programs.

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch."The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for, and it resulted in a young man losing his life," Kennard wrote.

Nationwide, about 25,000 watch groups are registered with the sheriffs' association. Other groups are registered with local law enforcement agencies.

More than 3,500 volunteers make up the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol (COP), a program whose aim is reporting suspicious activity. The Broward Sheriff's Citizen Observer Patrol, with about 1,400 volunteers, shares the same objective.

Volunteers promote safer neighborhoods, serving as "the eyes and ears" of law enforcement, Palm Beach County sheriff's spokeswoman Teri Barbera said. They are told not to engage suspicious people for everyone's safety, she said.

"That's not the purpose of the neighborhood watch," Barbera said. "That's law enforcement's purpose."

In South Florida, it's unlikely anyone would have trouble identifying a Citizens on Patrol volunteer, authorities say. COP members in Broward and Palm Beach counties wear uniforms and drive specially marked cruisers, enhancing departments' omnipresence in communities, officials said.

So, are you saying that rules change from county to county?

Yes, and I'm still waiting for evidence that Zimmerman was trained that he was not to carry a gun.

(SANFORD, Fla.) -- George Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watchman who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old Florida high school student, last month blatantly violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned.

All neighborhood watch persons are self-appointed.

What major principles? Excuse if ABC News' track record here doesn't warrant taking what they say at face value. They were the ones who reported that he wasn't injured.

[Coito ergo sum]

Huh - the loitering bit -- loitering in the rain - kinda like what Zimmerman reported to 911.

walking home is loitering?

No, but that isn't what Zimmerman reported to 911.

Possibly on drugs or illegal activity

was martin singing in the rain, flapping his arms, swinging a gun around? how exactly did zimm come to the conclusion that he's possibly on drugs or illegal activity?

We don't know the details, but he said Martin looked like he was on drugs. According to the "handbook" Sanford neighborhood watchmen are instructed with, looking like someone is on drugs is something that might be cause to call in as suspicious.

Running. According to the 911 call, Zimmerman exited his vehicle AFTER Martin started running away.

Running away from zimmerman, after zimmer gets out of his car and starts pursuing him is considered to you..........exactly what?

He ran BEFORE Zimmerman got out of his car, according to the 911 tape. He did not start running after Z got out of the car. It was BEFORE Z got out of the car.

So, take a look at the Sanford Handbook

Can you please show me where Sandfor Handbook has different rules than all the other Neighborhood Watch Organization rules.

Nothing in it about not carrying a gun. Surely such a prime and important rule would be in the handbook. Do you have any information that Z was ever told he ought not carry a gun?

[kiki5711]

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch."The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for, and it resulted in a young man losing his life," Kennard wrote.

Nothing in it about not carrying a gun. Surely such a prime and important rule would be in the handbook. Do you have any information that Z was ever told he ought not carry a gun?

Please show me where in the rule book points out about carrying a gun. Not to mention it appears Zimmerman's group was not even registered as a neighborhood watch. Maybe that's why he thought rules didn't apply to him.

He ran BEFORE Zimmerman got out of his car, according to the 911 tape. He did not start running after Z got out of the car. It was BEFORE Z got out of the car.

Well that sounds even worse. Clearly pursuing martin whereas he should have stayed put.

We don't know the details, but he said Martin looked like he was on drugs

what was martin doing that made him look like he was on drugs? you can't just say someone looks like he's on drugs, there has to be some indication to make you think that, otherwise it's just pure immagination.

[Tero]

Immature.

But imagination.

English. Not too clear on double consonants.

[mistermack]

Immature.

But imagination.

English. Not too clear on double consonants.

Im in this case means "not". As in implausible ( not plausible ), imperfect ( not perfect ), immature ( not mature ) etc.

But imagination doesn't mean " not agination " so it's not an im word. It has a different root.

Anyway, that's why immature has two m s.