27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

[JimC]

I don't know if you can read this if you are not a registered member, so I will quote the post.

Posted in the thread: WTF is going on???school shooting.
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general- ... post388487

Post #63

If the teachers were armed, they would still be victims. The teachers unions and the brady campaign walk hand in hand. There would have been one gun, kept in the principals office, unloaded with a cable lock through the action, trigger lock through the trigger guard, wire tie through the barrel with the magazine kept under lock and key in the vice principals office, and one bullet with each teacher, kept in a capsule up their rear beneath a chastity belt. And even then, with an active shooter on campus, the vice principal would be required to see 3 forms of ID, your birth certificate, do a background check, file paperwork, review school security policies, consult the administrator, call 911, personally inform every parent via phone....

Well, as far as school bureaucracy goes, that is a very telling post, Gallstones... And I know it well...

However, there is also the issue that, when teachers are armed, students will feel the need to tool up, to preserve the balance of terror...

Students have been tooling up for four decades, it's why there were armed police patrols and metal detectors and a closed campus when I was last in high school.

Not in Oz, thank Darwin...

But seriously, isn't that a telling piece of data? A society where schools need armed guards?

[laklak]

That rifle should be banned on account of being hideous anyhow.

Yeah, it's pretty fugly at that.

I did a bit of digging, using this site as a base.

http://www.columbine-angels.com/School_Violence.htm

Not all the listings (and there are a depressingly large number of them) listed the weapons used, so I trawled the net for further information on the shooters. I managed to get into the early 90s when I had to stop, just too goddamned depressing. Anyway, the most commonly listed weapon was a .22 handgun, followed by .38 or 9mm handguns. 22 rifles were pretty common. Assault weapons weren't as common as I thought they'd be. Apparently there are a lot of 22s out there.

[macdoc]

Free enterprise eh

http://www.thenation.com/article/171808 ... on-america#

[Kristie]

I don't know if you can read this if you are not a registered member, so I will quote the post.

Posted in the thread: WTF is going on???school shooting.
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general- ... post388487

Post #63

If the teachers were armed, they would still be victims. The teachers unions and the brady campaign walk hand in hand. There would have been one gun, kept in the principals office, unloaded with a cable lock through the action, trigger lock through the trigger guard, wire tie through the barrel with the magazine kept under lock and key in the vice principals office, and one bullet with each teacher, kept in a capsule up their rear beneath a chastity belt. And even then, with an active shooter on campus, the vice principal would be required to see 3 forms of ID, your birth certificate, do a background check, file paperwork, review school security policies, consult the administrator, call 911, personally inform every parent via phone....

Well, as far as school bureaucracy goes, that is a very telling post, Gallstones... And I know it well...

However, there is also the issue that, when teachers are armed, students will feel the need to tool up, to preserve the balance of terror...

Students have been tooling up for four decades, it's why there were armed police patrols and metal detectors and a closed campus when I was last in high school.

Not in Oz, thank Darwin...

But seriously, isn't that a telling piece of data? A society where schools need armed guards?

Not all the schools! I graduated in 2000 and neither of the high schools in my town had armed guards or metal detectors. The school district we now live in doesn't have armed guards or metal detectors either! Just depends where you live.

[Jason]

Banning the latter would save thousands of lives.

Handgun ownership is defensible on the grounds that it is one of the most effective means of self-defence. Assault weapon ownership is not.

I've made my suggestions already, here and in another thread, about what could possibly be done re handguns and decreasing firearms related deaths.

[orpheus]

Free enterprise eh

http://www.thenation.com/article/171808 ... on-america#

That's utterly disgusting.

[Jason]

I did a bit of digging, using this site as a base.

http://www.columbine-angels.com/School_Violence.htm

Not all the listings (and there are a depressingly large number of them) listed the weapons used, so I trawled the net for further information on the shooters. I managed to get into the early 90s when I had to stop, just too goddamned depressing. Anyway, the most commonly listed weapon was a .22 handgun, followed by .38 or 9mm handguns. 22 rifles were pretty common. Assault weapons weren't as common as I thought they'd be. Apparently there are a lot of 22s out there.

That sounds plausible. Angry kid goes home and gets his (the odds of the gunman being a man are something like 10:1) .22 target pistol/plinking rifle and comes back to exact his revenge.

[Gallstones]

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general- ... post388694
From the thread: WTF is going on???school shooting.
Post #96

2Awarrior

Good lord ... what the heck is happening to this planet ... cannot imagine what the parents of these children are going through.
But I can imagine this -
I can imagine being asked to represent my most dearly held beliefs about gun rights and self-defense before a gathering of the parents of these kindergartners, all of us sitting in a room festooned with photos of their lost four and five year-olds. I can imagine them looking me dead in the eyes, having no preconceived notions about what I might say, just politely waiting to hear me pontificate about how the Second Amendment protects my right to own my M4 and a couple thousand rounds of ammunition.
I imagine leaving without uttering a word.

It's not fair, in fact it's an unspeakable shame - 80 million of us didn't do this. But WTF are we supposed to say to these people, and millions of like-minded others all over the country?
The sicko murdering cowards like this perp today are destroying us. We are sinking into the ocean, even while legislation in some parts of the country (Illinois, for one) seems to suggest we're making progress.

I can multitask - I can feel anguish and pray for these children and parents, while feeling real despair about our own diminishing liberties. I'm almost out of gas, out of hope.

[Jason]

Why in the bloody hell should he have an M4?

[Blind groper]

Handgun ownership is defensible on the grounds that it is one of the most effective means of self-defence.

You must not have read my earlier post. Hand guns save very few lives through self defense, and take a very large number, through murder and suicide.

87% of all killings in the home with firearms (mostly hand guns) are suicides of the gun's owner or a member of his/her family. Having a hand gun in the home increases, not reduces, the probability of a member of the family dying with a bullet through them.

You cannot justify hand guns in private hands by arguing it saves lives, because it does not. It causes more people to die.

[orpheus]

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general- ... post388694
From the thread: WTF is going on???school shooting.
Post #96

2Awarrior

Good lord ... what the heck is happening to this planet ... cannot imagine what the parents of these children are going through.
But I can imagine this -
I can imagine being asked to represent my most dearly held beliefs about gun rights and self-defense before a gathering of the parents of these kindergartners, all of us sitting in a room festooned with photos of their lost four and five year-olds. I can imagine them looking me dead in the eyes, having no preconceived notions about what I might say, just politely waiting to hear me pontificate about how the Second Amendment protects my right to own my M4 and a couple thousand rounds of ammunition.
I imagine leaving without uttering a word.

It's not fair, in fact it's an unspeakable shame - 80 million of us didn't do this. But WTF are we supposed to say to these people, and millions of like-minded others all over the country?
The sicko murdering cowards like this perp today are destroying us. We are sinking into the ocean, even while legislation in some parts of the country (Illinois, for one) seems to suggest we're making progress.

I can multitask - I can feel anguish and pray for these children and parents, while feeling real despair about our own diminishing liberties. I'm almost out of gas, out of hope.

And I'll post the response to this that I just did on RatSkep:

You know what? I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that all American citizens are at fault. Literally. We as American citizens collectively determine what happens here. We vote in the government - and we get what we deserve. We all bear some of the responsibility here.

So the article you just posted, Gallstones, is honestly heartfelt, no doubt, and moving to read - but it's bullshit.

[Jason]

Handgun ownership is defensible on the grounds that it is one of the most effective means of self-defence.

You must not have read my earlier post. Hand guns save very few lives through self defense, and take a very large number, through murder and suicide.

87% of all killings in the home with firearms (mostly hand guns) are suicides of the gun's owner or a member of his/her family. Having a hand gun in the home increases, not reduces, the probability of a member of the family dying with a bullet through them.

You cannot justify hand guns in private hands by arguing it saves lives, because it does not. It causes more people to die.

I've read your previous posts many of them. You're asserting the conclusion to your argument.. again.

[laklak]

That sounds plausible. Angry kid goes home and gets his (the odds of the gunman being a man are something like 10:1) .22 target pistol/plinking rifle and comes back to exact his revenge.

Hell, when I was young just about every kid I knew had a .22 by the time they were in middle school. I had my old Marlin 14+1 up until a few years ago.

I don't remember many people owning handguns, though. Pretty much every house I went to had a rifle or shotgun or two, but pistols were relatively rare. Everybody wanted to see my Dad's old P38, the only pistol we had in the house. My best friend's Dad had a snub nose .38 that we got to shoot every now and then as a treat.

[devogue]

I don't know if you can read this if you are not a registered member, so I will quote the post.

Posted in the thread: WTF is going on???school shooting.
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general- ... post388487

Post #63

If the teachers were armed, they would still be victims. The teachers unions and the brady campaign walk hand in hand. There would have been one gun, kept in the principals office, unloaded with a cable lock through the action, trigger lock through the trigger guard, wire tie through the barrel with the magazine kept under lock and key in the vice principals office, and one bullet with each teacher, kept in a capsule up their rear beneath a chastity belt. And even then, with an active shooter on campus, the vice principal would be required to see 3 forms of ID, your birth certificate, do a background check, file paperwork, review school security policies, consult the administrator, call 911, personally inform every parent via phone....

I like that, but as applied to the entire population - one gun per person, kept in the office of one heavily vetted person rather than individually handled, unloaded with a cable lock through the action, trigger lock through the trigger guard, wire tie through the barrel with the magazine kept under lock and key in the heavily vetted person's office, one bullet per person, kept in a capsule up their rear beneath a chastity belt...for use the heavily vetted person would be required to see 3 forms of ID, your birth certificate, do a background check, file paperwork, review school security policies, consult the administrator, call 911, personally inform everyone in your community before releasing the gun....

Obama should push for that be legislated as soon as possible. It might just help prevent the next slaughter of the innocents.

[orpheus]

Over at RatSkep I expanded on my post above:

[quote="orpheus";p="1570594"][quote="Gallstones";p="1570588"][quote="orpheus";p="1570584"]You know what? I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that all American citizens are at fault. Literally. We as American citizens collectively determine what happens here. We vote in the government - and we get what we deserve. We all bear some of the responsibility here.

So the article you just posted, Gallstones, is honestly heartfelt, no doubt, and moving to read - but it's bullshit.[/quote]


And the divide gets wider, steeper, deeper.[/quote]

You know, Gallstones, I could put it like this. I want the divide closed. We're all in this together. It's a huge problem. Either we're all going to act like adults and take responsibility for coming together - whatever our differences of opinion - and help fucking solve it, or we're not. I'm saying we need to do that. I see gun proponents saying "guns are not the problem." They sometimes go so far as to say "mental health is the problem". Fine - if they think that's the problem, then ok. Then they should be out there loudly fighting from that angle to help solve the problem. But do they campaign strongly or speak out loudly or lobby for better mental health care? I don't see it. They simply don't care enough.

The author of your article is basically saying "horrible and sad, yes, but hey - it's not my fault." I find it offensive that his biggest concern is being tongue-tied in front of his imagined audience. Furthermore, he says he's almost out of gas. Really? He's out of gas? Poor guy. How much has he done to contribute to solving the problem? At this point, saying he's out of gas is obscene. He's giving up. Giving up is an insult to the children murdered in Newtown - and it's helping to let the next massacre take place.

Anti-gun people like me are fighting like hell because we want the problem solved, and we think guns are a big part of the problem. Gun proponents disagree. Fine. I'll forget my difference of opinion with them. My point is: what are they doing to solve the problem? Do they have other ideas? Are they actively and publicly pursuing them? Or are they simply fighting to keep their guns?[/quote]


http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... l#p1570594