Toldjaso!

[surreptitious57]

Democracy is high on the list of Very Bad Things, and it's nothing more than a code-word for the tyranny of the majority

Actually it can function just as well without the majority because any democracy that has the first past the post system can elect all its politicians on a minority vote
But if you are against democracy and communism then what political system do you favour ? You may say libertarianism but that could actually be incorporated into
a democratic model. But as you are against democracy then you would have to favour a libertarianism that existed without democracy. However since libertarianism references the freedom of the individual as does democracy itself then would not such freedom be severely limited or non existent in a non democratic setting. You
recently said that America was the greatest country that ever existed but America is actually a democracy. So you are inadvertently championing the very thing you disapprove of [ unless its greatness has nothing to do with it being a democracy and for that I would like to see specific examples ]

United States is NOT a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic that uses limited democratic procedures. It's most certainly not a democracy, and
was explicitly planned by the Founders NOT to be a democracy because 230 years ago they knew things that evidently you are utterly ignorant of

What would be required then to make America a legitimate democracy ? And what influence would the founding fathers have once they were dead ? For are
you actually suggesting the America of today is what they planned for over two hundred years ago ? And if so how exactly did they manage to achieve this ?

[rainbow]

Democracy is high on the list of Very Bad Things, and it's nothing more than a code-word for the tyranny of the majority

Actually it can function just as well without the majority because any democracy that has the first past the post system can elect all its politicians on a minority vote
But if you are against democracy and communism then what political system do you favour ? You may say libertarianism but that could actually be incorporated into
a democratic model. But as you are against democracy then you would have to favour a libertarianism that existed without democracy. However since libertarianism references the freedom of the individual as does democracy itself then would not such freedom be severely limited or non existent in a non democratic setting. You
recently said that America was the greatest country that ever existed but America is actually a democracy. So you are inadvertently championing the very thing you disapprove of [ unless its greatness has nothing to do with it being a democracy and for that I would like to see specific examples ]

United States is NOT a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic that uses limited democratic procedures. It's most certainly not a democracy, and
was explicitly planned by the Founders NOT to be a democracy because 230 years ago they knew things that evidently you are utterly ignorant of

What would be required then to make America a legitimate democracy ? And what influence would the founding fathers have once they were dead ? For are
you actually suggesting the America of today is what they planned for over two hundred years ago ? And if so how exactly did they manage to achieve this ?

An angel came down and revealed the Libertarian Gospel to them.

[MrJonno]

An angel came down and revealed the Libertarian Gospel to them.

Natural rights don't need no angel!

[Svartalf]

there's no such thing as a natural right, they are all social constructs.

[piscator]

American rights are derived from a circularity...

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

...and it will stay that way until such time as we choose.

[Seth]

Democracy is high on the list of Very Bad Things, and it's nothing more than a code-word for the tyranny of the majority

Actually it can function just as well without the majority because any democracy that has the first past the post system can elect all its politicians on a minority vote
But if you are against democracy and communism then what political system do you favour ? You may say libertarianism but that could actually be incorporated into
a democratic model. But as you are against democracy then you would have to favour a libertarianism that existed without democracy. However since libertarianism references the freedom of the individual as does democracy itself then would not such freedom be severely limited or non existent in a non democratic setting. You
recently said that America was the greatest country that ever existed but America is actually a democracy. So you are inadvertently championing the very thing you disapprove of [ unless its greatness has nothing to do with it being a democracy and for that I would like to see specific examples ]

United States is NOT a democracy, it's a Constitutional Republic that uses limited democratic procedures. It's most certainly not a democracy, and
was explicitly planned by the Founders NOT to be a democracy because 230 years ago they knew things that evidently you are utterly ignorant of

What would be required then to make America a legitimate democracy ?

The deaths of hundreds of millions of Americans.

Democracy, you see, is a great evil and must be battled at every turn in the interests of individual liberty and freedom, to the death if necessary.

And what influence would the founding fathers have once they were dead ?

They created the framework that we operate by.

For are
you actually suggesting the America of today is what they planned for over two hundred years ago ?

Insofar as the principles and practices announced in the Constitution, yes, it's what they planned. Insofar as the perversions, distortions and deliberate ignoring of those principles and practices are concerned, it's nothing at all like they planned and our nation is worse and weaker for it.

And if so how exactly did they manage to achieve this ?

By being wise and intelligent men working together to ensure liberty and freedom from tyranny rather than cupidinous politicians and hacks manipulating government for their own enrichment and power.

[Seth]

I could have sworn we had a change of government a few months ago. Much to my regret, I must say. I hate the new lot, but what can I do? The bastards were voted into office by the majority of our electorate.

You can exercise many options but one: putting down a tyrant with force of arms.

Yeah. We get them down this way all the time. Every morning I wake up, have a look out the window and go: Fuck! There's another tyrannical government. I wish I could do something about them turning up before breakfast all the time, but what can I do? Nothing at all. I lost my well regulated militia through a hole in the pocket years ago.

That's what the white farmers and ranchers in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) said right after the Mugabe government took away their arms and their lands...and then their lives.

Silly me. How could I have ignored that Australia is exactly like Zimbabwe.

To the Aboriginals it is. It depends on which end of the barrel you stand.

[Hermit]

Democracy, you see, is a great evil...

Funny that you seem to be echoing the sentiments of a great 20th century man: "Democracy is a form of the state, it represents [...] the organised, systematic use of force against persons..." V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917

[Hermit]

You can exercise many options but one: putting down a tyrant with force of arms.

Yeah. We get them down this way all the time. Every morning I wake up, have a look out the window and go: Fuck! There's another tyrannical government. I wish I could do something about them turning up before breakfast all the time, but what can I do? Nothing at all. I lost my well regulated militia through a hole in the pocket years ago.

That's what the white farmers and ranchers in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) said right after the Mugabe government took away their arms and their lands...and then their lives.

Silly me. How could I have ignored that Australia is exactly like Zimbabwe.

To the Aboriginals it is. It depends on which end of the barrel you stand.

Yes, in that regard we do have a similarity with US treatment of American Indians, but you are evading the point, which is that Australian history and social development has fuckall in common with that of Zimbabwe.

[JimC]

Democracy, you see, is a great evil...

Funny that you seem to be echoing the sentiments of a great 20th century man: "Democracy is a form of the state, it represents [...] the organised, systematic use of force against persons..." V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917

It's time for Seth to come out of the closet...

[rainbow]

Democracy, you see, is a great evil...

Funny that you seem to be echoing the sentiments of a great 20th century man: "Democracy is a form of the state, it represents [...] the organised, systematic use of force against persons..." V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917

Holy Cheese!

Seth is a Crypto-Communist.

[piscator]

Communism sneaks up in the tall grass and grabs you by the ass. Just like Charlie.

[Seth]

Democracy, you see, is a great evil...

Funny that you seem to be echoing the sentiments of a great 20th century man: "Democracy is a form of the state, it represents [...] the organised, systematic use of force against persons..." V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution, 1917

Yeah, the difference is that he was lying through his teeth knowing that his plan was to institute a barbarous tyranny under the guise of utopian Communism, which he knew perfectly well could not function, whereas I'm stating it as the great evil that it is. This doesn't mean that his ultimate form of communism wasn't also evil, it was.

[JimC]

All those who attack democracy have a hidden agenda, including Lenin.

The others are elitist buffoons, useful tools of the rich and powerful who fear that moving in a more democratic direction will limit their privileges...

[piscator]

All those who attack democracy have a hidden agenda, including Lenin.

The others are elitist buffoons, useful tools of the rich and powerful who fear that moving in a more democratic direction will limit their privileges...

It helps to drop the needed distinction between direct democracy and representative democracy, if you want to stir up the peasants.