Skull Cracker Walkies

[MrJonno]

(Jonno does the opposite, and says that the government is always right, or at least is the only thing standing between us and utter disaster; in reality, individuals need to play their own part, to a degree, in ensuring their own well-being...)

The government is required to organise so we all survive, obviously there has to be something to organise so a bunch of bureaucrats without anyone doing anything to be organised isn't going to be very helpful either

[Seth]

(Jonno does the opposite, and says that the government is always right, or at least is the only thing standing between us and utter disaster; in reality, individuals need to play their own part, to a degree, in ensuring their own well-being...)

The government is required to organise so we all survive, obviously there has to be something to organise so a bunch of bureaucrats without anyone doing anything to be organised isn't going to be very helpful either

Cart-before-the-horse fallacy.

The existence of government is aberrant to man's natural condition.

It comes into being when society becomes too complex to be managed through individual cooperation.

It's a necessary evil, but it is evil and needs to be carefully controlled lest it destroy everything and every one.

[JimC]

(Jonno does the opposite, and says that the government is always right, or at least is the only thing standing between us and utter disaster; in reality, individuals need to play their own part, to a degree, in ensuring their own well-being...)

The government is required to organise so we all survive, obviously there has to be something to organise so a bunch of bureaucrats without anyone doing anything to be organised isn't going to be very helpful either

Cart-before-the-horse fallacy.

The existence of government is aberrant to man's natural condition.

It comes into being when society becomes too complex to be managed through individual cooperation.

It's a necessary evil, but it is evil and needs to be carefully controlled lest it destroy everything and every one.

You are both at weird extremes of the bell curve of a rational understanding of the relationship between individuals, society and government.

[mistermack]

Not that there is any such thing as evil, but if there was, then free unfettered humans are by far the most evil. We in modern society are the product of constant education and indoctrination from an early age, to respect others, not to hurt those smaller or weaker, not to band together in gangs to hurt others who are on their own. etc etc.

Even with all that indoctrination, we can still be pretty evil. But governments and law and the fear of prison keeps us fairly straight.

Government might be evil, on occasion, but it's nothing compared to what the average person is capable of, if there was no restraint.

[MrJonno]

The existence of government is aberrant to man's natural condition.

Man's natural condition is to form a government (in fact its most higher organisms natural condition).

[piscator]

The existence of government is aberrant to man's natural condition.

Man's natural condition is to form a government (in fact its most higher organisms natural condition).

I think division of labor is probably a better word than "government" in that sentence...

[JimC]

One word from Hobbes.

Leviathon.

[MrJonno]

I think division of labor is probably a better word than "government" in that sentence..

No I mean government as in hierarchical organisation, the most basic form of course is dictatorship by whoever is the strongest, but even in a dictatorship the governed prefer that to being completely on their own (ie being on your own for a large number of animals is basically suicide)

[piscator]

One word from Hobbes.

Leviathon.

I've run in a couple of those.

[Seth]

(Jonno does the opposite, and says that the government is always right, or at least is the only thing standing between us and utter disaster; in reality, individuals need to play their own part, to a degree, in ensuring their own well-being...)

The government is required to organise so we all survive, obviously there has to be something to organise so a bunch of bureaucrats without anyone doing anything to be organised isn't going to be very helpful either

Cart-before-the-horse fallacy.

The existence of government is aberrant to man's natural condition.

It comes into being when society becomes too complex to be managed through individual cooperation.

It's a necessary evil, but it is evil and needs to be carefully controlled lest it destroy everything and every one.

You are both at weird extremes of the bell curve of a rational understanding of the relationship between individuals, society and government.

If true (which it's not) I'm in good company...people like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin.

I'll stand proudly with them at the end of the bell curve that represents reason, logic, intelligence, thought, and deep understanding of the true nature of government.

[Seth]

Not that there is any such thing as evil, but if there was, then free unfettered humans are by far the most evil. We in modern society are the product of constant education and indoctrination from an early age, to respect others, not to hurt those smaller or weaker, not to band together in gangs to hurt others who are on their own. etc etc.

Even with all that indoctrination, we can still be pretty evil. But governments and law and the fear of prison keeps us fairly straight.

Government might be evil, on occasion, but it's nothing compared to what the average person is capable of, if there was no restraint.

Only idiots, pinheads and Marxist useful idiots argue over a strawman definition of a society with "no restraint."

That model has nothing whatever to do with Libertarianism.

[Seth]

The existence of government is aberrant to man's natural condition.

Man's natural condition is to form a government (in fact its most higher organisms natural condition).

Wrong. Man's natural instinct is to take care of number one first and foremost. Government only comes into existence when two or more individuals are in close proximity and discover that mutual cooperation works better than law-of-the-jungle survival of the fittest.

The same thing is true of every creature that has a social structure of any kind.

But the basic nature of ALL living organisms is to survive at any cost. It's an evolutionary imperative. That's why in the lifeboat scenario "government" collapses and it becomes survival of the fittest. In the end, every person will do whatever is necessary to survive (or to allow their progeny to survive) regardless of the cost to others. And yes, there are rare exceptions, but we're talking about normal behavior.

Social structures, ie: government, only exists for so long as it is mutually beneficial to the members of the community. When that government becomes destructive to their happiness, they will eliminate it and do something else more likely to secure their happiness.

Wait...I think I'm channeling Thomas Jefferson there...

Imagine that...240 years ago they knew something important that you, Jonno, are entirely incapable of understanding. That makes you a Darwinian dead end.

[piscator]

Allahu Akbar!