Naughty Naughty Americans

[Coito ergo sum]

Perhaps you just outdid yourself, comeback-wise.

[Trolldor]

Comeback? Not really.

If I felt the need to insult someone I would do so.

At this point I'm dealing with the situation in the matter it demands.

[Gawd]

Easy to paint America is the big bad evil man until you realise you shot down the only 'international bully' left who actually practiced democracy in its own borders...

I don't think those are necessarily connected unless you apply a "Love it or Leave it" type of mentality. America can surely always improve. But without criticism or protest of any kind, it likely won't.

Very true. To Americans, we sometimes feel as if we are subjected to greater scrutiny and held to different standards. That's the impression often left, anyway.

Funny thing, that's what the Jewish Israelis tell me as they force Arabs out of their homes both in and outside of Israel. Wait.....who's giving all the weapons and warplanes to these thieves? And who blocks every UN resolution condemning the Jewish racists? Answer: America.

You don't have any evidence that anyone was forced out of their homes. Or, do you? Anything besides Pallywood?

What about the Muslim racists? Farfour? Fateh's constitution stating that they want to "eradicate" and "obliterate" Israel? Calls for ethnic genocide by Muslims? Come on - stop it with the "Muslims are oppressed" bullshit. Muslims are fucking oppressORS not oppressEES. They oppress half their own populations - women, plus some more - homosexuals - plus some more - apostates - plus some more -- non-Muslims residing in Muslim lands, and I'm sure some more. The male Muslims in Muslim countries are among the greatest oppressors in the world. The fact that we try to keep them from spreading their filth elsewhere is a good thing. It's sickening what they're doing in Africa, though. We need to stem the tide of Islamic expansion there. It's fucking sesspit because of your filthy pig ridden religion.

Cheers!

Funny thing, I was going to say that we to stem the tide of Jewish expansion there.

And you are just putting your head in the ground if you deny all the Jewish aggression and thievery. Just go look at all the threads I've made in the Israel subforum. They are all posts about evidence brought forth by Jewish reporters in case you want to keep perpetuating the myth about Pallywood. Haven't you read the thread where the Jewish Israeli says "Death to Arabs" and steals their water wells? Done with the help of the American-financed Israeli Death Squad. America is what enables the Jewish racists to steal.

[sandinista]

Comeback? Not really.

If I felt the need to insult someone I would do so.

At this point I'm dealing with the situation in the matter it demands.

[JimC]

Oppressor and oppressee are not mutually exclusive.

An extremely important point. Far too much of the political debate here is both polarised and simplistic.

It is perfectly possible for aspects of CES's description of Israel's foes as Islamic terrorists (in part) to co-exist with a valid critique from Gawd of the appalling treatment by Israeli authorities of non-Jews in their territory. A pox on both their houses...

In both cases, hominid tribalism allied with the poison of religion is a major factor...

[Trolldor]

Given that Hamas grew as a result of the occupation by Israel

[Clinton Huxley]

The latest Wikileaks revelations astound me! Russia is a corrupt, autocratic, mafia-state! Who would have ever believed it?!

Next from Wikileaks:-

1) "Moon probably NOT made of cheese"
2) Bears display marked preference for arboreal defecation"

[Robert_S]

The latest Wikileaks revelations astound me! Russia is a corrupt, autocratic, mafia-state! Who would have ever believed it?!

Next from Wikileaks:-

1) "Moon probably NOT made of cheese"
2) Bears display marked preference for arboreal defecation"

You really think those DIPlomats know anything about bears and cheese?

[Santa_Claus]

To Americans, we sometimes feel as if we are subjected to greater scrutiny and held to different standards. That's the impression often left, anyway.

You are.

and it''s all your fault. sort of.

For most of the last 100 odd years the US was the shining city on the hill. A beacon of hope around the world and the promise of tommorow being a better day. The promised land of opportunity and of new beginnings. The idea alone fulfilled a human need.

Of course it never was. and never could be. Which didn't matter until the rest of the world realised. and that it was also simply a Nation of Shopkeepers - with no big idea underpinning it, no matter what is claimed. Folks still arriving because they love the dollar not quite the same thig.

Stealing other people's dreams and hopes can never be forgiven.

US now in the same situation as British Emoire - lost it's aura, and not enough cash to sustain the good life at home nor to impose itself sufficently abroad to keep it's dominant market share from slipping away to the new kid(s) on the block. Travelling long distances and killing folks is only a short term fix.

BTW not saying that a good thing or a bad thing - I suspect, for me, a bad thing........

[Clinton Huxley]

The latest Wikileaks revelations astound me! Russia is a corrupt, autocratic, mafia-state! Who would have ever believed it?!

Next from Wikileaks:-

1) "Moon probably NOT made of cheese"
2) Bears display marked preference for arboreal defecation"

You really think those DIPlomats know anything about bears and cheese?

Probably not. Or they just make stuff up. Ever read Our Man In Havana?

[Mishakal]

The latest Wikileaks revelations astound me! Russia is a corrupt, autocratic, mafia-state! Who would have ever believed it?!

Next from Wikileaks:-

1) "Moon probably NOT made of cheese"
2) Bears display marked preference for arboreal defecation"

So far the only shocking thing is that it's ARAB nations that is putting pressure the US to attack Iran and not Israel so much, and that the leaders of the various Arab states don't really care about the whole Palestine thing, but just say they do to try and get and keep support in their own territories.

Everything else we all had already guessed at, or already knew.

But since Jullian is saying that there is still more stuff he hasn't let out of the bag yet, let's wait and see...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'll willing to bet a lot of countries are worried that very similar correspondence will make its way to the internet at some future date. Nothing special about this stuff. I know of "official" messages that would have come close to starting wars if they'd been made public.

[Coito ergo sum]

To Americans, we sometimes feel as if we are subjected to greater scrutiny and held to different standards. That's the impression often left, anyway.

You are.

and it''s all your fault. sort of.

For most of the last 100 odd years the US was the shining city on the hill. A beacon of hope around the world and the promise of tommorow being a better day. The promised land of opportunity and of new beginnings. The idea alone fulfilled a human need.

Of course it never was. and never could be. Which didn't matter until the rest of the world realised. and that it was also simply a Nation of Shopkeepers - with no big idea underpinning it, no matter what is claimed. Folks still arriving because they love the dollar not quite the same thig.

I think that's a misunderstanding of history. Clearly, there never was anything magical about the United States, but it most certainly is underpinned by many big ideas. The United States is a child of the Liberal Enlightenment of the 18th century - it was the first country to be conceived in the Age of Reason, without a king. It was the first country since ancient Greece and Rome to organize itself as a Republic, followed shortly thereafter by France (some raise the issue Iceland, but the point remains).

The United States was the first country in the history of the world to constitutionally protect Freedom of Religion, with the Establishment/Free Exercise Clauses.

The notion that all just power comes from the consent of the governed was huge idea, and it was unheard of (in operating governments) at the time the US was formed, and remains rare today, except in Europe and a few other places. Most of the world still lives in chains.

To suggest that the United States was not a "beacon of home" (and is still not a beacon of hope) is to ignore reality. More people immigrated to the US over the last 235 years than to any other country on Earth, precisely because they saw it as promising freedom and the possibility of making for oneself and one's family a better life. By and large, they didn't immigrate to Russia or China for that. They didn't immigrate to Arabia for that. They didn't immigrate to Africa for that.

The principles of "all men created equal" and that certain rights are "inalienable" - like Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness - was a tremendously huge idea, drawing on the best and brightest of Rennaissance and Enlightenment thought, and the US drew upon the the "big ideas" of the Enlightenment thinkers in Europe to actually build something based on those ideas.

The authors of the American Declaration of Independence, the United States Bill of Rights, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, and the Polish-Lithuanian Constitution of May 3, 1791, were motivated by Enlightenment principles. Obviously, Poland didn't work out to become a liberal republic, and the first French Republic was killed by Napoleon in 1804, but the United States did persevere.

Although imperfect, as all human endeavors are, to suggest that the US is simply just a home for merchants and shopkeepers, without any other "big ideas" just doesn't seem to accord with the facts. And, freedom for shopkeepers is not a bad thing, anyway. It's included in the concept of liberty, the idea that a person can build a better mousetrap and sell it to people who want it is not evil - it's not bad. The fact that someone would open a "shop" by investing his or her own time, money and resources into it, so that needed or desired goods and services are delivered to others is not anathema to big ideas of liberty, equality, and happiness.

Stealing other people's dreams and hopes can never be forgiven.

You'll have to be specific as to what you're talking about. Whose hopes and dreams have been stolen?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I find the "Mecca for the Oppressed" image of the US to be somewhat amusing. There are large segment of the immigrant population who came to the US solely to make a bundle and then return to the mother country. Some of them never made that bundle so they never returned. Others just did a loot-and-pillage and headed home. This is, in part, behind the "Little Whatevers" that sprang up in large cities. Folks who had no real interest in integrating into the larger society because they weren't planning to become citizens.

[Coito ergo sum]

More people - even today - become US citizens every year than any other country in the world, more people become permanent residents of the United States than any other country in the world. They don't do that in order to make a buck and then head back to the old country.

If you've ever been to a citizenship swearing in ceremony (I've been to several) you'd experience first hand the unmitigated joy that is felt by those who take the oath of citizenship. Those people love the U.S., generally speaking. They love it so much that tears of joy are common at the ceremony, people invite their families and friends to share in the momentous occasion, and the excitement and emotion in the room is palpable. They make most folks who were born here look like spoiled children who take what they have for granted.

The "large segment" of the population of immigrants that came here just to use the US for money and then return home is miniscule compared to the number of immigrants who came the US and made a new life permanently. Immigration to the US gradually increased from its founding - by the end of the 19th century, almost 15% of the US population was foreign born. From 1880 to 1924, 25 million immigrants came to the US. In 2006, there were almost 40 million immigrants in the United States. Since the 1990's the annual immigration to the US has exceed 1,000,000 persons a year. Even with post 9/11 scrutiny interjecting - from 2000 to 2005 more than 8 million people immigrated to the US.

Since World War II, more refugees have found homes in the U.S. than any other nation. More than two million refugees have arrived in the U.S. since 1980, alone. Of the top ten countries accepting resettled refugees in 2006, the United States accepted more than twice as much [i]as the next nine countries combined.[/i]

Despite what we hear in the MSM about the illegal alien problem, a friendlier country to immigrants cannot be found. The reality is that most Americans know immigrants, work with immigrants, like immigrants, and take no issue with immigrants qua immigrants. It really is the "illegal" part that people don't like. And, in my experience, most folks that obtained their green cards and naturalization through normal process feel the same way.