patriotism

[Coito ergo sum]

Patriotism doesn't just pop up spontaneously.

Sure it does. It is the natural feeling a person has to protect those who live in his house, over those who don't; to protect those who live in his village, over those who don't; and protect those who live in his country, over those who don't.

Tribalism.

Tribalism =/= Patriotism.

The way I look at it is that tribalism and patriotism have similar origins, but are not the same thing.

Yes, tribalism is based on the natural feeling in a person to protect those in the tribe, and keep outsiders away. It's how social animals survive. Had we as humans not evolved with a mechanism to identify with a family and peer group, we would not likely have lasted long on Earth.

Patriotism, while it has its genesis in the innate emotional connections of a person to their family and their "people," is broader than tribalism. It is a love, devotion or loyalty to a country. It's a subtle difference.

Maybe it's like suggesting that a bar fight and war have similar a similar genesis in the human psyche. But, a war does not equal a bar fight.

[charlou]

Pretty much how AB put it, then

Patriotism, IMHO, is just tribalism writ large.
In/Out group politics on a geographical scale.

[AshtonBlack]

Patriotism doesn't just pop up spontaneously.

Sure it does. It is the natural feeling a person has to protect those who live in his house, over those who don't; to protect those who live in his village, over those who don't; and protect those who live in his country, over those who don't.

Tribalism.

Tribalism =/= Patriotism.

The way I look at it is that tribalism and patriotism have similar origins, but are not the same thing.

Yes, tribalism is based on the natural feeling in a person to protect those in the tribe, and keep outsiders away. It's how social animals survive. Had we as humans not evolved with a mechanism to identify with a family and peer group, we would not likely have lasted long on Earth.

Patriotism, while it has its genesis in the innate emotional connections of a person to their family and their "people," is broader than tribalism. It is a love, devotion or loyalty to a country. It's a subtle difference.

Maybe it's like suggesting that a bar fight and war have similar a similar genesis in the human psyche. But, a war does not equal a bar fight.

How is a love, devotion and/or loyalty for a country different to a smaller social group, let's say a city state (eg Sparta, Athens) or a county (Lancashire, Yorkshire) ?

You say it's subtle, well I've missed it because the same rhetoric is used, the same jingoism and the same punishment for those who are seen as "not belonging."

[Coito ergo sum]

Patriotism doesn't just pop up spontaneously.

Sure it does. It is the natural feeling a person has to protect those who live in his house, over those who don't; to protect those who live in his village, over those who don't; and protect those who live in his country, over those who don't.

Tribalism.

Tribalism =/= Patriotism.

The way I look at it is that tribalism and patriotism have similar origins, but are not the same thing.

Yes, tribalism is based on the natural feeling in a person to protect those in the tribe, and keep outsiders away. It's how social animals survive. Had we as humans not evolved with a mechanism to identify with a family and peer group, we would not likely have lasted long on Earth.

Patriotism, while it has its genesis in the innate emotional connections of a person to their family and their "people," is broader than tribalism. It is a love, devotion or loyalty to a country. It's a subtle difference.

Maybe it's like suggesting that a bar fight and war have similar a similar genesis in the human psyche. But, a war does not equal a bar fight.

How is a love, devotion and/or loyalty for a country different to a smaller social group, let's say a city state (eg Sparta, Athens) or a county (Lancashire, Yorkshire) ?

You say it's subtle, well I've missed it because the same rhetoric is used, the same jingoism and the same punishment for those who are seen as "not belonging."

Well, let me try to explain. I realize that your quote from Emma Goldman, patriotism being tribalism writ large, is certainly a common view on the topic.

But, let's start at the beginning: patriotism is love of and/or devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Greek patris, meaning fatherland. However, patriotism has had different meanings over time, and its meaning is highly dependent upon context, geography and philosophy.

Some people use patriotism as a synonym for nationalism, but "nationalism" (which is also sometimes equated to tribalism) is not an inherent part of patriotism. Among the ancient Greeks, for example, patriotism consisted of notions concerning language, religious traditions, ethics, law and devotion to the common good, rather than pure identification with a nation-state. For Socrates, patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and patriotism would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be.

During the 18th century Age of Enlightenment, the notion of patriotism continued to be separate from the notion of nationalism. Instead, patriotism was defined as devotion to humanity and beneficence. For example, providing charity, criticizing slavery, and denouncing excessive penal laws were all considered patriotic. In both ancient and modern visions of patriotism, individual responsibility to fellow citizens is an inherent component of patriotism.

Many contemporary notions of patriotism are influenced by 19th century ideas about nationalism. During the 19th century, "being patriotic" became increasingly conflated with nationalism, and even jingoism. However, some notions of contemporary patriotism reject nationalism in favor of a more classic version of the idea of patriotism which includes social responsibility.

And, jingoism is not synonymous with patriotism either, and is more of an extreme form of nationalism or patriotism taken to an extreme - with threats and aggression and belligerence being focal points.

Tribalism, on the other hand is much simpler and basic than these more modern concepts, and goes to the very heart of human nature (a tribe is just slightly broader than a family, basically).

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right). Nationalism is different in that it is a focus on the nation as a whole - a form of "collectivism." Nationalism is very recent in human history, as nations themselves originated in Europe only a few centuries ago. As an ideology, nationalism holds that 'the people' in the doctrine of popular sovereignty is the nation, and that as a result only nation-states founded on the principle of national self-determination are legitimate. And, Jingoism adds a very loud expression, particular one of aggression to outsiders.

[sandinista]

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right).

I think that may be the problem right there. To me patriotism is unquestioned loyalty, very similar to religious people. Patriots have "faith" that their country is "doing right" in the same way people have "faith" in god.

[Coito ergo sum]

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right).

I think that may be the problem right there. To me patriotism is unquestioned loyalty, very similar to religious people. Patriots have "faith" that their country is "doing right" in the same way people have "faith" in god.

I don't view that as true patriotism. Some people have faith that their country is doing right. Some people come right out and say "my country right or wrong." Not me. My view of patriotism is that a true love of country requires opposition to wrong action, just as surely as it requires support of right action.

[Robert_S]

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right).

I think that may be the problem right there. To me patriotism is unquestioned loyalty, very similar to religious people. Patriots have "faith" that their country is "doing right" in the same way people have "faith" in god.

It can mean either Coito's definition or yours, depends on whose talking.

I am inclined to distrust anyone who owns more than one flag or who talks about patriotism a great deal, except when they're posting in a thread trying to come to some consensus about what the fuck the word actually means.

[Robert_S]

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right).

I think that may be the problem right there. To me patriotism is unquestioned loyalty, very similar to religious people. Patriots have "faith" that their country is "doing right" in the same way people have "faith" in god.

I don't view that as true patriotism. Some people have faith that their country is doing right. Some people come right out and say "my country right or wrong." Not me. My view of patriotism is that a true love of country requires opposition to wrong action, just as surely as it requires support of right action.

AUTHOR: Carl Schurz (1829–1906)

QUOTATION: The Senator from Wisconsin cannot frighten me by exclaiming, “My country, right or wrong.” In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.

ATTRIBUTION: Senator CARL SCHURZ, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872, The Congressional Globe, vol. 45, p. 1287. The Globe merely notes “[Manifestations of applause in the galleries]” but according to Schurz’s biographer, “The applause in the gallery was deafening.” This is “one of Schurz’s most frequently quoted replies.”—Hans L. Trefousse, Carl Schurz: A Biography, chapter 11, p. 180 (1982).

[Coito ergo sum]

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right).

I think that may be the problem right there. To me patriotism is unquestioned loyalty, very similar to religious people. Patriots have "faith" that their country is "doing right" in the same way people have "faith" in god.

I don't view that as true patriotism. Some people have faith that their country is doing right. Some people come right out and say "my country right or wrong." Not me. My view of patriotism is that a true love of country requires opposition to wrong action, just as surely as it requires support of right action.

AUTHOR: Carl Schurz (1829–1906)

QUOTATION: The Senator from Wisconsin cannot frighten me by exclaiming, “My country, right or wrong.” In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.

ATTRIBUTION: Senator CARL SCHURZ, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872, The Congressional Globe, vol. 45, p. 1287. The Globe merely notes “[Manifestations of applause in the galleries]” but according to Schurz’s biographer, “The applause in the gallery was deafening.” This is “one of Schurz’s most frequently quoted replies.”—Hans L. Trefousse, Carl Schurz: A Biography, chapter 11, p. 180 (1982).

Great quote.

[sandinista]

Trying to apply all this to the real world, I would call someone a patriot if they love their country, and are willing to sacrifice for it (but, not unquestioningly - the country must do right).

I think that may be the problem right there. To me patriotism is unquestioned loyalty, very similar to religious people. Patriots have "faith" that their country is "doing right" in the same way people have "faith" in god.

It can mean either Coito's definition or yours, depends on whose talking.

I am inclined to distrust anyone who owns more than one flag or who talks about patriotism a great deal, except when they're posting in a thread trying to come to some consensus about what the fuck the word actually means.

Yes, like most things it comes down to definitions. Patriotism, as described in the OP, is more along the lines of what I am talking about. Examples:

General Augusto Pinochet of Chile, mass murderer and torturer: "I would like to be remembered as a man who served his country." 1

P.W. Botha, former president of apartheid South Africa: "I am not going to repent. I am not going to ask for favours. What I did, I did for my country." 2

Pol Pot, mass murderer of Cambodia: "I want you to know that everything I did, I did for my country." 3

Tony Blair, former British prime minister, defending his role in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis: "I did what I thought was right for our country." 4

[natselrox]

[devogue]

Patriotism ... means you love or are devoted to your country, or are loyal to it.

If you didn't have any patriotism, however, you'd not have any care for the vast majority of people in your country.

Patriotism is not a thing that exists in and of itself. It's an emotion or a sentiment, which is created in the human brain and applied to a situation.

I loathe patriotism because it blocks the development of feelings of love, loyalty and solidarity in relation to where it ought to matter: fellow human beings. Isn't it about time we realise that the majority of us - wage earners, salary earners and all other ordinary people - have more in common with our counterparts in other nations than with those that wield power, the few whose main activities are to maximise wealth with shrewd share transactions, creating hedge funds, gamble on currency predictions and mass producing assault rifles for their own personal benefit?

Patriotism doesn't just pop up spontaneously. It is a device that economic and political empire builders have learnt to use with alacrity to get their underlings to do the dirty work for them. Herman Göring explained it like this:

• Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

At its core, patriotism is the number one hindrance to humanism exactly because it focuses on the concept of nationhood rather than humanity at large.

Absolutely fucking spot on.

In Northern Ireland there has always been a yearning and futile pleading from thoughtful Republicans and Loyalists for the ordinary people in each community to understand that the similarities in their lives far, far outweigh the differences. People like Gusty Spence and David Ervine displayed respect, a certain kind of affinity and eventually almost brotherhood with people on the opposite side of the peaceline. They were self-educated ex-terrorists with no foot up in life who were infinitely more enlightened and humanistic than so called "respectable" rabble-rousers like Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson who lived detached, privileged lives apart from the people they were supposed to represent.

[JimC]

We can't help it. Hominids who had no feeling for, or did not support their tribe, left fewer offspring...

As a tendency, it is built into us, and it it is pointless to deny its existence.

However, it is not pointless to resist or deny it when it it is causing more pain than good...

[Warren Dew]

I loathe patriotism because it blocks the development of feelings of love, loyalty and solidarity in relation to where it ought to matter: fellow human beings. Isn't it about time we realise that the majority of us - wage earners, salary earners and all other ordinary people - have more in common with our counterparts in other nations than with those that wield power, the few whose main activities are to maximise wealth with shrewd share transactions, creating hedge funds, gamble on currency predictions and mass producing assault rifles for their own personal benefit?

You had me at the beginning but then you lost me again.

I agree that patriotism is problematic - even Coito's form - because it involves caring more about people who by an accident of birth are one's fellow citizens, and thus less about everyone else. We should care about everyone.

However, caring more about people just because they happen to make money in the same way one does oneself - that's just as parochial and problematic a viewpoint. We should care about everyone.

[Hermit]

I loathe patriotism because it blocks the development of feelings of love, loyalty and solidarity in relation to where it ought to matter: fellow human beings. Isn't it about time we realise that the majority of us - wage earners, salary earners and all other ordinary people - have more in common with our counterparts in other nations than with those that wield power, the few whose main activities are to maximise wealth with shrewd share transactions, creating hedge funds, gamble on currency predictions and mass producing assault rifles for their own personal benefit?

You had me at the beginning but then you lost me again.

I agree that patriotism is problematic - even Coito's form - because it involves caring more about people who by an accident of birth are one's fellow citizens, and thus less about everyone else. We should care about everyone.

However, caring more about people just because they happen to make money in the same way one does oneself - that's just as parochial and problematic a viewpoint. We should care about everyone.

I did not imply that we should not care about everyone. I was saying that the people who kill each other on the battlefield have more in common with each other than with the people they are doing the killing on behest of. I also indicated that an appeal to patriotism by the latter is an important tool to get them to do this. Lastly, I said that the appeal to patriotism is precisely that which is a hindrance to humanism, humanism being the caring for everyone. I thought I made that clear in the bit of the post you did not quote. Please read it again:

Patriotism doesn't just pop up spontaneously. It is a device that economic and political empire builders have learnt to use with alacrity to get their underlings to do the dirty work for them. Herman Göring explained it like this:

• Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

At its core, patriotism is the number one hindrance to humanism exactly because it focuses on the concept of nationhood rather than humanity at large.