Ban Ronald McDonald?

[Sisifo]

You want the minimum waged raised to $14 an hour? Are there any negative unintended consequences that might flow from such a dramatic increase?

No, I just want McDonald's to pay a higher wage.

One of the main reasons why McDonalds is adding all these jobs is because they will be opening their stores for 24 hours. Instead of pocketing the big savings they will be enjoying in overhead and labor, not having close down and open up their stores, why not give it to their labor force.

Because maybe they figure they can make more money staying open 24 hours a day, and you and I don't run their business (nor do we have the experience to do so effectively).

There isn't an "it" to give away - it's not as if there is a pile of money that showed up and now McDonalds is going to figure out where to put it. They have cash flow and revenues, and their business plan is designed to maximize those, and reduce costs.

You're right CES, they aren't making enough, they definitely need more profits. And, since they've exploited workers this long, why change now and be humane?

Gotta Love McDonald's Profits

I believe you are exaggerating, Mai. I can think of dozens of situations or companies that exploit their workers beyond what could be called humane, but McDonalds, as much as I hate them, it is not one of them. I think it is important to think what there would be if McDonalds would not be there, and often (from countries where they are not present), you have similar places, much less organized with similar or lesser salaries, and a lot, and I mean a lot, of lesser working conditions.

[devogue]

http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/static/pdf/p ... rofile.pdf

[Coito ergo sum]

You want the minimum waged raised to $14 an hour? Are there any negative unintended consequences that might flow from such a dramatic increase?

No, I just want McDonald's to pay a higher wage.

One of the main reasons why McDonalds is adding all these jobs is because they will be opening their stores for 24 hours. Instead of pocketing the big savings they will be enjoying in overhead and labor, not having close down and open up their stores, why not give it to their labor force.

Because maybe they figure they can make more money staying open 24 hours a day, and you and I don't run their business (nor do we have the experience to do so effectively).

There isn't an "it" to give away - it's not as if there is a pile of money that showed up and now McDonalds is going to figure out where to put it. They have cash flow and revenues, and their business plan is designed to maximize those, and reduce costs.

You're right CES, they aren't making enough, they definitely need more profits. And, since they've exploited workers this long, why change now and be humane?

Gotta Love McDonald's Profits

Maybe they think their customers want the convenience of a 24 hour store. 7 Eleven does it - I suppose they'd make enough if they closed at midnight and opened at 8am.

You're now saying it is "inhumane" to hire people at the federal minimum wage? The minimum wage is "inhumane?"

I marvel at this mindset. At some point, running a successful business stopped being something to admire, and started being something to loathe.

[devogue]

I like that the worldwide chief of McDonald's started working as a spotty youth in one of the restaurants and that to get a franchise now you have to show 10 years worth of service to the company including eight years as a restaurant manager.

It reminds me of my days at Oddbins when it was in its glory as the UK's best wine merchant. Like all of us, the MD of the company started by sweeping floors and lugging cases around for a pittance (I started on £8,300 per year in London in 1996 - and that was fuck all even then). Those were the happiest days of my career and I worked quickly up to management. The plum job then was the Farringdon Road branch, but it would take ten years of brilliance to get there, and then the unimaginable heights of "Head Office" would await.

I like that for all its faults McDonald's has, to a certain degree, a similar defined career path based on merit - I remember when we sold our family wine shop eight years ago to a large chain the new manager came in and he was a nice level headed man, salt of the Earth and seriously clued in - I had a lot of respect for him as we discussed the handover of the business. He really knew his stuff. But his superior was a jumped up cunt with the title "Area Manager" who barked orders to him and his assistants and generally got on everyone's tits. It turned out he was a Business Studies graduate from a poxy university who had walked in above the heads of six managers because he had letters after his name, even though they had proved themselves by working their way to Retail Management, practically rather than theoretically, after leaving school with few qualifications. The resentment felt was palpable.

Sorry to digress.

[maiforpeace]

Compared to a lot of other jobs, sure, McDonald's might be a better job. And, I can't say what goes on at the McDonald's overseas. However, just because minimum wage is the standard, doesn't mean it's reasonable...when I say humane, I mean providing an income that meets basic needs, as I posted earlier. So yes, in my unrealistic mindset, I think anything less is inhumane.

They have enjoyed record profits for years, wouldn't it be amazing for them to become an industry leader in paying people something closer to what people can actually survive on.

[Coito ergo sum]

Do you recognize that not all jobs are meant to be family breadwinner jobs?

Are any jobs allowed to be jobs for students and senior citizens? Second income jobs?

Why must everything be regimented in the rigid way you describe - a paper boy must be paid "an income that meets basic needs." (not sure where the cutoff line is for basic - food, clothing, shelter and transportation? Television? Phone?) So - every job must entail a salary for an individual to live on their own?

I have a good friend who makes very good money. His wife likes to work part time at a grocery store. Must the grocery store assume that she is the breadwinner of the house and pay her what would cover her food, clothing, shelter, child care and the like?

I mean - does every job have to pay a wage on which people can fully support themselves and their families? Why?

[maiforpeace]

No CES, not every job, but out of 50,000 jobs, how many people are supposed be unskilled, part time workers? All 50K of them?

In a fast food operation, you need one supervisor, just for a shift, per 10 workers. That doesn't include the general, district, regional managers, and all other adjunct positions.

And don't play dumb about where is the cutoff for what's considered a basic need...I posted an article earlier with a study that goes into all the details of what are considered basic needs. The 30K salary was for one person only. According to the study, to support a family with two children one would need to earn 57K. At McDonald's you would have to be at least a regional manager to earn that much.

Oh, and just some more issues workers are facing in this economy that make it even harder to survive.

Out Of Service: Milwaukee Budget Cuts Hit Bus Lines -- And Keep Residents From Jobs






'

[Coito ergo sum]

No CES, not every job, but out of 50,000 jobs, how many people are supposed be unskilled, part time workers? All 50K of them?

I don't know, but a good deal of them are shift supervisors and assistant managers - and they earn the wage you're describing or more ($30,000 is $15 an hour).

A person who takes money at a cash register and hands someone a bag of food is, like it or not, doing an unskilled job.

In a fast food operation, you need one supervisor, just for a shift, per 10 workers. That doesn't include the general, district, regional managers, and all other adjunct positions.

And don't play dumb about where is the cutoff for what's considered a basic need...I posted an article earlier with a study that goes into all the details of what are considered basic needs. The 30K salary was for one person only. According to the study, to support a family with two children one would need to earn 57K. At McDonald's you would have to be at least a regional manager to earn that much.

I guess your $14 an hour isn't sufficient after all.

And, I'll take you back to your response above - you said, "No, CES, not every job..." - well, so which jobs? McDonald's jobs, including cashier and burger flipper have to pay $57k, in case the person has a family to support?

[devogue]

No CES, not every job, but out of 50,000 jobs, how many people are supposed be unskilled, part time workers? All 50K of them?

I don't know, but a good deal of them are shift supervisors and assistant managers - and they earn the wage you're describing or more ($30,000 is $15 an hour).

A person who takes money at a cash register and hands someone a bag of food is, like it or not, doing an unskilled job.

And they have the opportunity to learn and become skilled within their employment.

[maiforpeace]

And, I'll take you back to your response above - you said, "No, CES, not every job..." - well, so which jobs? McDonald's jobs, including cashier and burger flipper have to pay $57k, in case the person has a family to support?

Oh please CES. You are just nitpicking at nothing now...how obtuse do you think I am when it comes to how an organization like Mickey D's operates?

When you want to stop with this circular bullshit, then I might consider rejoining the discussion.

[sandinista]

Nobody forces anyone to work at McDonalds. Employees are there by choice. Simple.

Thank you, Seth.

McDonald's offers terms in return for labour. It is the right of anyone to accept or reject those terms. If someone decides to accept them, then they must be more attractive than any (or no) alternative.

yeah, starving is always a choice, especially in the current economic situation... I'm pretty sure that in victorian times, kids deliberately chose to work as chimney sweeps or to thieve for fagins too.

Indeed.

indeed...x2. Choice? Sure, there is always the choice

[Warren Dew]

They have enjoyed record profits for years, wouldn't it be amazing for them to become an industry leader in paying people something closer to what people can actually survive on.

I don't believe the line workers aren't paid by the McDonald's corporation anyway, they're paid by the franchisees.

[Coito ergo sum]

And, I'll take you back to your response above - you said, "No, CES, not every job..." - well, so which jobs? McDonald's jobs, including cashier and burger flipper have to pay $57k, in case the person has a family to support?

Oh please CES. You are just nitpicking at nothing now...how obtuse do you think I am when it comes to how an organization like Mickey D's operates?

When you want to stop with this circular bullshit, then I might consider rejoining the discussion.

I am discussing it. How much do they have to be paid? First you said $14, but then you said $57k a year. It's not lawful for McDonalds to quiz incoming workers on their familial status to determine what their basic needs are.

I'm just trying to get to some specifics, through the "McDonald's sucks and should pay more" generalities.

You agreed that not every job needs to be a breadwinner-compensated job, right? So, I'm trying to get an idea as to which jobs you would allow to pay less than the "basic needs" wage, and which ones must pay basic needs. And, would compensation, in your mind, depend on specific needs? I.e. - if someone has more basic needs, ought they be required to be compensated more?

[maiforpeace]

They have enjoyed record profits for years, wouldn't it be amazing for them to become an industry leader in paying people something closer to what people can actually survive on.

I don't believe the line workers aren't paid by the McDonald's corporation anyway, they're paid by the franchisees.

They do set standards that franchisees have to follow though.

[Santa_Claus]

A large part of the reason for the success of McD as a business is that they will promote on merit. Including into senior Management.

Arguably McD is a model corporation. Whether one likes the food or not.