Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[kiki5711]

This thread is an embarrassment to critical thinking. May as well have shot Aristotle and all those who built upon his work and just kept on just doing and saying whatever felt best at the moment without analyzing a damned thing. God/political persuasion/emotional bias be praised.

EXactly how I feel.

[FBM]

This thread is an embarrassment to critical thinking. May as well have shot Aristotle and all those who built upon his work and just kept on just doing and saying whatever felt best at the moment without analyzing a damned thing. God/political persuasion/emotional bias be praised.

EXactly how I feel.

And yet...

[Coito ergo sum]

Forensics is associated with the police, because it is the police who are conducting the investigation. That's what cops do - look for evidence of a crime, and that is what investigation is

No shit sherlock! Thanks for the enlightement!

The person I was responding to suggested that the forensics ought to have nothing to do with the police, but should be the province of the court/judge.

THE POINT IS, there was NO investigation of ANYTHING, because he was cleared of all charges.

That's false.

And, as for FBM's comment, it would be my guess that he is referring quite a bit to you.

[Faithfree]

This thread is going to break some sort of record.

I'll confess I haven’t read beyond the first couple of pages. Anyone care to give short synopsis - 100 words or less?

[FBM]

And you, CES, and everyone else who's already made up their minds based on bias rather than evidence, spinning what scant evidence there is ad nauseum. Fucking embarrassment to the last 3,000 years of intellectual development. The Englightenment may as well have never happened, if this is the best "critical thinkers" can do.

I'm thinking most of the main participants in this thread wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it fell in their lap.

[Coito ergo sum]

This thread is going to break some sort of record.

I'll confess I haven’t read beyond the first couple of pages. Anyone care to give short synopsis - 100 words or less?

My synopsis:

Zimmerman shot Martin and claims self defense. Much of what has been claimed to have happened didn't happen or didn't happen the way presented. The evidence revealed publicly seems to arguably substantiate his claim. Prosecution still investigating.

Not sure of the word count. But, that's about it.

[Coito ergo sum]

And you, CES, and everyone else who's already made up their minds based on bias rather than evidence, spinning what scant evidence there is ad nauseum. Fucking embarrassment to the last 3,000 years of intellectual development. The Englightenment may as well have never happened, if this is the best "critical thinkers" can do.

I'm thinking most of the main participants in this thread wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it fell in their lap.

How many times do I have to say that I haven't made up my mind, and what I am saying is that those who have drawn conclusions of Zimmerman's guilt have done so prematurely and without sufficient evidence, before the allegation that I have "made up my mind that he is innocent" will be withdrawn?

I have not made up my mind that he is innocent or guilty. I do not have sufficient evidence. I wasn't there.

Frankly, I've been in agreement with you on this, so I don't know where you get off telling me I've made up my mind. Have you made up your mind?

[Warren Dew]

I love the way people are academically, technically, grudgingly and briefly admitting that they don't really know what happened that night, but fervently pushing their politically and emotionally preferred conclusions and condemnations nonetheless.

You mean pushing their own preferred conclusions like this:

From what I've read, I suspect Zimmerman is to blame.

While grudgingly admitting they don't really know like this:

But that's just a guess, too, given the paucity of details.

?

I'm thinking there are a lot of people in glass houses on this issue.

[maiforpeace]

Yup, that's why I've decided to completely bow out of this discussion and just listen and observe.

[Seabass]

I love the way people are academically, technically, grudgingly and briefly admitting that they don't really know what happened that night, but fervently pushing their politically and emotionally preferred conclusions and condemnations nonetheless.

You mean pushing their own preferred conclusions like this:

From what I've read, I suspect Zimmerman is to blame.

While grudgingly admitting they don't really know like this:

But that's just a guess, too, given the paucity of details.

?

I'm thinking there are a lot of people in glass houses on this issue.

OH SNAP!!

[Coito ergo sum]

A couple things bother me about the allegations against Zimmerman.

Maybe we can talk about one of them, instead of insulting each other. Folks seem to have accepted the fact that the 911 tape revealed that Zimmerman chased Martin down, ignoring the instructions of the dispatcher.

I've listened to the tape. I've read the transcript. I don't see it. Does anyone see it?

On what basis is the allegation made.

Really? Where in the transcript, exactly?

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got
something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does
anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the
clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the
clubhouse.
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh
you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?

Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones]
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the
officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the
club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they
go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes
then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the
area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome.

[kiki5711]

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.Dispatcher: OK.

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh
you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.

When zimmerman is saying oh shit he's running, is martin running "away" from him or "towards" him? Sounds like he's running away from him to me.

So how did they end up bumping into each other and started fighting?

Did martin hide somewhere behind a house and jump on him, or did zimmerman keep following him in spite of directions from the dispatcher not to do so and aggressively confront martin?

what interpretation do you get?

[Coito ergo sum]

Zimmerman says that Martin came back, which would be in line with the allegation that Martin attacked Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground hitting his head, etc.

After the dispatcher says "o.k. we don't need you to do that" he says "O.k." Then she's asking him a question and he's answering, if you listen to the audio, in a normal tone of voice, "George... he ran." He then goes on to answer more questions as he coordinates where to meet the police cruiser which is on the way. There is no indication in the audio that he is running while talking on the phone. Is there?

Zimmerman says “OK” and the rustling ends at 2:42. At 2:38 Zimmerman says “He ran." Past tense. Zimmerman remains on the phone with the dispatcher until at least 4:12. During that time he describes his location and directs the dispatcher to the location of his parked car.

From the transcript and the audio, doesn't it sound like Zimmerman obeyed the 911 operator and simply acknowledged that Martin ran? Or, are you suggesting that Zimmerman was running after Martin for a minute and a half trying to catch him, and yet able to talk normally without being breathy and without any rustling? Before the 911 operator says "we don't need you to do that" we CAN hear rustling as Zimmerman is moving. When he is told to stop, the rustling stops, and doesn't start.

And, seriously, take a look at this step by step analysis: http://floppingaces.net/2012/04/03/the- ... ader-post/

It contains a google Earth image of the complex, with numbers on locations verifiable as to where people were. If you follow the transcript and watch the map, it makes sense.

If Zimmerman was “hunting down” Martin as some have opined, why did he not simply shoot Martin upon encountering him? Why would Zimmerman get so close to Martin that Martin could punch Zimmerman in the face and knock him down if his intention was to kill Martin? (BTW, ABC News has had an epiphany. It has decided that George Zimmerman had injuries after all) Would a person bent on murder allow himself to be assaulted and still expect that he could reach and fire his gun? If Zimmerman was brandishing a gun what could possess Martin to attack him? No reasonable person is going to charge someone aiming a gun at one. Zimmerman agreed to meet with the police as they arrived. Why would he agree to meet them and then chase after Martin to kill him? Why would someone bent on murder hold Martin at gunpoint while he screamed for 40 seconds? Because he wanted witnesses to the murder? Why didn’t Zimmerman run if murder was the goal?

A few dozen yards. A few is about 3. Three dozen yards. 36-40 yards. 120 feet. George Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon Martin at 2:38 of the call, or about 7:13:50. Martin has until 7:16 to cover the “few dozen yards” to make it to the safety of Brandy Green’s residence. Zimmerman remains on the phone until 7:15:24. Martin’s girlfriend said the phone call went “dead” at 7:16, but Martin and Zimmerman were already exchanging words. According to Martin’s girlfriend, the conversation was initiated by Martin. The window between the end of Zimmerman’s call to the SPD and the meeting is brief. Really brief.

Martin had over two minutes to reach Green residence. Why didn’t he go there? This suggests strongly that Martin did not go to the Green residence, but instead hid somewhere, waiting for Zimmerman, and then confronted Zimmerman. Martin spoke first to Zimmerman, not the other way around. I think Martin approached Zimmerman’s car from the direction of the clubhouse, passed the car and then bolted. Martin then rounded the corner and hid. Zimmerman pursued until being asked to stop but lost Martin. As Zimmerman turned to head back to his car, Martin came out of hiding and confronted Zimmerman. The rest is history.

Now, that last bit is speculation, but it is plausible and fits the facts.

What doesn't fit the facts, I think, is the idea that Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher's instructions and raced off after Martin, hunting him down. Nothing in the transcript or the audio indicates any such thing.

[kiki5711]

This question is important because it could help prove or disprove Zimmerman’s account of his encounter with Trayvon. He says Trayvon surprised him after he had returned to his vehicle, floored him with one punch, and then beat his head on the ground, according to the police incident report. A broken nose and cuts on the back of the head would be consistent with this account.

this is from the police report.

If martin decided to run and hide and jump zimmerman, and according to zimmermans report it was at his vehicle, how did they end up in the middle of a walk through in between the houses? Were they wrestling all the way from the parking lot to the back of the house?

[mistermack]

Umm, Martin's words, on the phone to his girlfriend, "why are you following me?"
And then the phone went dead, like it had been knocked from the speaking position.
Unless she invented the whole thing, shortly after the incident, I think we can take her account as true.

Unless she's part of some elaborate scheme to incriminate someone she didn't even know.

What part of "following" is giving people trouble, I wonder?

You also have the fact that the the 911 tape has the dispatcher asking Zimmerman where he will be, and Zimmerman says this :

Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes
then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?

If Zimmerman was going to just wait for the police, he would have met them by the mail boxes.
If he was intending to follow Martin, he would want them to phone him when they arrived.
You work it out !!