Guns used for lawful self defense

[FBM]

And trying to forcefully disarm the entire public, that's going to prevent bloodshed or cause it? And even if it were possible to run gestapo on the entire country, criminals included (which it's not), the criminals would re-arm themselves through Mexico or Canada within the week. Then you've got a lot of very angry criminals running around in an unarmed population. Nice. That's going to make one helluva Hollywood movie. Lots of shooting and bloodshed. Box office smash, for sure. People love violent films.

[Blind groper]

Well then, FBM, perhaps you might like to suggest a solution.

And please don't say 'education'. Education does not stop murderers from being murderers.

[Jason]

You mean instead of smuggling firearms into Canada, I would have to smuggle them out?

Education does not stop murderers

No. People educated and trained in the safe and proper use of firearms stop murderers.

[Blind groper]

Pord

None of that explains why the USA has 4 times the murder rate of any of the other richest 23 nations. In fact, it has 80% of all the gun murders of all 23 nations combined. That does not sound to me like your theory works. In fact, any rational person would conclude that the ridiculous theory that more guns, educated or not, makes fewer gun deaths is a load of nonsense.

It is like saying : "Tobacco kills people. Let us solve the problem by selling more tobacco." Duh!

[Seth]

Self defense is not murder, it's self defense, or in other words, it's justifiable homicide.

Actually, if the situation described ever happened, and the police came to take away your guns, and you fought back, inflicting death, it would be murder. The word 'murder' has a legal definition, meaning an unlawful killing. Killing an officer of the law because he was doing his duty is most definitely unlawful. Thus, by definition, your act would be murder. Not only that, but murder of a policeman, meaning it would receive the worst punishment that the law offers. Your name would go down in history, in whatever tiny way it was remembered, as an exceeding evil person.

Or a hero and a patriot, depending on who writes the history.

On suicides.
Evidently, what I said before about suicides went right over your head. So here it is again.

Researchers have discovered that the impulse to suicide is a temporary one and not normally repeated. If a person fails to find a method of killing him/herself during the short duration of that impulse, then he/she will probably never try again, and will have a chance to recover from whatever emotional problem afflicts them.

If a hand gun is available during that critical period, we end up with someone dying who should not. It is not a case of a person in terrible pain finding a way out of their horrible life. Instead, it is a case of a temporary madness taking a human life, when it can be avoided.

Evidently what I said is to sophisticated for your tiny mind to understand. So here it is again.

I don't care what happens to suicides when the cost of my concern are my gun rights. Propose whatever you like by way of helping troubled people deal with their problems, but nobody's going to remove MY guns merely because SOMEONE ELSE might have a suicidal impulse that is fulfilled because THEY have access to SOME OTHER gun.

I'm not responsible for the suicidal thoughts of others, I have no moral, ethical or legal obligation to inconvenience myself or agree to an infringement upon my rights just to pander to the impulses of potential suicides. It's their right to descend into suicidal "madness" and I respect that right. I have no right, and indeed no legal obligation to interfere with someone who wishes to commit suicide. It's even coming to the point where it's socially and legally acceptable to assist a suicide in some circumstances.

It's their life to take, and if that's what they want to do, it's none of my business. I do not choose to exercise such control over them, I choose to let them live and die in liberty and freedom, for better or worse, because that is THEIR CHOICE. But I will not allow them, by proxy of idiots like you, to make choices about MY liberty and freedom. They are insane, and no sane society sets the metric for possession of an item based on what insane people do with it.

Even so, I have no intrinsic objection to barring suicidal people from possessing firearms while they are deep in suicidal ideology. But there is absolutely no rational argument to be made that I, a non-suicidal, law-abiding citizen am in any way obligated to give up my guns on the mere chance that one of the 12,000 people who commit suicide will do so with a gun, any gun, and not MY gun.

It's just stupidity made manifest to even suggest banning hundreds of millions of handguns, and the pleasure, sport and security they offer to their owners on the specious notion that we have to do so to protect a few thousand temporarily insane suicidal persons. By your logic, once again (for about the fourth time, all of which you've ignored) we must ban all prescription sedatives and many other prescription and over-the-counter medicines and chemicals that might possibly be used by someone to commit suicide. We must also ban cars, airplanes, knives, bridges, tall buildings, cliffs, rope, razor blades, plastic bags, carbon monoxide gas and a raft of other devices of suicide.

Sorry, but their lives are not worth giving up my rights for. It's very sad for them, but that's just the way it is.

[Seth]

But I agree wholeheartedly that education is the key to reducing gun violence and gun accidents, which has been proved by a 98% drop in gun accidents since the 1920s largely due to the NRA's firearms safety and education programs.

Wrong.

Why is it wrong?
it is wrong because gun accidents are not the real problem. Very few people relatively die in gun accidents. But 100,000 people each year receive a bullet - most from homicide attempts. Education aint gonna make a blind bit of difference to that!

Wrong.

Universal firearms education will a) give them a greater appreciation for situational awareness and defensive tactics, b) prepare them to carry and properly use a hand gun for self-defense, and c) will deter homicide attempts as a greater and greater proportion of the public decides to carry a handgun for self defense.

The problem is that too many of the people in the U.S. are gullible, credulous, ignorant fools who think arguments like yours make sense. Education would go a long way towards showing them the truth about firearms and their proper and appropriate uses and debunking the kind of mindless paranoid crap people like you spew at ever turn.

[Seth]

Well then, FBM, perhaps you might like to suggest a solution.

And please don't say 'education'. Education does not stop murderers from being murderers.

Yeah, shut the fuck up and mind your own business, sheeple.

[Blind groper]

I don't care what happens to suicides when the cost of my concern are my gun rights.

Seth

This attitude is the reason I said you are very likely to be a psychopath. That is not a personal insult. It is, to the best of my ability, an honest diagnosis. Psychopathy is characterised by a lack of feeling for other people. Your comments meet that criterion.

On education.
Universal firearms education will not do a blind thing to stop a killer smuggling a hand gun into an area where his victim is, and shooting that person.

It seems unbelievable to me that people like you, Seth, cannot see that America has a real problem, way worse than any of its peer group countries, and that the problem is due to the fact that any two bit killer can pick up a hand gun any time he likes. As long as hand guns are that readily available, you will continue to have 8,000 hand gun murders, 12,000 hand gun suicides, and a total of 100,000 people each year being maimed by receiving a bullet. No other advanced nation has this problem.

Handing out more guns will make this problem worse. You do not sell more drugs to solve a drug problem, and only a blithering idiot will suggest selling more guns to solve a gun problem.

[Seth]

I don't care what happens to suicides when the cost of my concern are my gun rights.

Seth

This attitude is the reason I said you are very likely to be a psychopath. That is not a personal insult. It is, to the best of my ability, an honest diagnosis. Psychopathy is characterised by a lack of feeling for other people. Your comments meet that criterion.

I don't lack feeling for suicidal people, I'm just not going to allow my feelings to overwhelm my good sense and agree with you that I have to give up my guns because some suicidal jackass might use a handgun to kill himself.

And you're not qualified to make a diagnosis of anything, you're just an idiot sheeple who thinks he's making sense. You're not.

On education.
Universal firearms education will not do a blind thing to stop a killer smuggling a hand gun into an area where his victim is, and shooting that person.

Nope, but it will better prepare his victim to act in self defense both tactically and with his own lawfully-carried handgun, and that may make all the difference. Yes, sometimes you die, but when only the bad guy has a gun, well, you get the Aurora theater shootings, or Columbine, or Tasmania, or Scotland, etc. It's always better for a potential victim to be armed and educated because it gives them an edge against an assailant that may save their life.

It seems unbelievable to me that people like you, Seth, cannot see that America has a real problem, way worse than any of its peer group countries, and that the problem is due to the fact that any two bit killer can pick up a hand gun any time he likes.

That's because you're an idiot. Of course a "two bit killer" can pick up a handgun any time he likes. He can do it here, he can do it in NZ, he can do it in the UK, he can do it in Pakistan, he can do it literally anywhere in the world because, you see, handguns exist. And as long as handguns exist, which will be for eternity, criminals will always have access to them.

That being the case, the only sane reaction from the law-abiding public is to carry their own handguns with which to defend themselves when some killer comes after them. It doesn't seem unbelievable to me that you are incapable of understanding this simple fact because you're a mindless hoplophobe who is immune to facts or reason.

As long as hand guns are that readily available, you will continue to have 8,000 hand gun murders, 12,000 hand gun suicides, and a total of 100,000 people each year being maimed by receiving a bullet. No other advanced nation has this problem.

Oh well. I guess you should stay the fuck out of the U.S.

Handing out more guns will make this problem worse. You do not sell more drugs to solve a drug problem, and only a blithering idiot will suggest selling more guns to solve a gun problem.

Except that the facts, and the 25 year experiment in doing just that in the United States proves you to be completely wrong. And yes, you do give more drugs to solve a drug problem. Give a drug addict a lethal dose and there's no more drug problem. And no more drug-related crime problem. I'm fully in favor of government-run "roach motels" in urban areas where any drug addict can walk in, get a room, and be supplied with an unlimited supply of the finest pharmaceutical grade drugs available, for free. The only catch is that you can check in, but you can't check out...except in either a body bag or after remaining totally clean in that facility for 90 days. If you can do that in an environment where any drug is freely available at any time for 90 days, then I'd say you're cured and deserve another chance at being allowed out into society. Otherwise, you stay till you OD or die of your drug habit.

[Blind groper]

I don't lack feeling for suicidal people, I'm just not going to allow my feelings to overwhelm my good sense and agree with you that I have to give up my guns because some suicidal jackass might use a handgun to kill himself.

No. That is not what you said. You made it clear you had no feeling for those unfortunate people who were in such a bad state of mind that they see no option other than suicide. Your callousness is not a good reflection on the pro-gun lobby.

it will better prepare his victim to act in self defense both tactically and with his own lawfully-carried handgun, and that may make all the difference.

The data does not show this. The data shows that, in the only wealthy nation that allows widespread possession of hand guns, lots more people get killed.

he can do it in NZ

The two bit killer does not do it in NZ. Our hand gun murder rate is almost zero.

Oh well. I guess you should stay the fuck out of the U.S.

That is my plan. The USA is not a welcoming place. I have been there twice, and met some very good Americans, but there is an awful lot of shit in the USA as well.

you do give more drugs to solve a drug problem. Give a drug addict a lethal dose and there's no more drug problem.

As I said. A psychopath level of callousness.

[Seth]

I don't lack feeling for suicidal people, I'm just not going to allow my feelings to overwhelm my good sense and agree with you that I have to give up my guns because some suicidal jackass might use a handgun to kill himself.

No. That is not what you said. You made it clear you had no feeling for those unfortunate people who were in such a bad state of mind that they see no option other than suicide. Your callousness is not a good reflection on the pro-gun lobby.

Liar.

it will better prepare his victim to act in self defense both tactically and with his own lawfully-carried handgun, and that may make all the difference.

The data does not show this. The data shows that, in the only wealthy nation that allows widespread possession of hand guns, lots more people get killed.

The data does show this.

he can do it in NZ

The two bit killer does not do it in NZ. Our hand gun murder rate is almost zero.

He can if he wants to.

Oh well. I guess you should stay the fuck out of the U.S.

That is my plan. The USA is not a welcoming place. I have been there twice, and met some very good Americans, but there is an awful lot of shit in the USA as well.

Works for me.

you do give more drugs to solve a drug problem. Give a drug addict a lethal dose and there's no more drug problem.

As I said. A psychopath level of callousness.

Meh. I just respect their right to kill themselves however they choose.

[FBM]

Well then, FBM, perhaps you might like to suggest a solution.

And please don't say 'education'. Education does not stop murderers from being murderers.

Education! Sorry. Had to do that.

My suggestion is for the US, allegedly a democracy, to follow the will of the masses while respecting the rights of the minorities. If the majority want gun ownership to be legal, so be it. I do NOT suggest that a totalitarian goverment decide for us what we can and can't do. If we wind up killing each other more often than if we'd made a different decision, so be it. We voted, we pay the price. I'd rather live in a democracy where the people choose than under a dictatorial regime. Have you got a plan to change the minds of some 300 million people?

[JimC]

Well then, FBM, perhaps you might like to suggest a solution.

And please don't say 'education'. Education does not stop murderers from being murderers.

Education! Sorry. Had to do that.

My suggestion is for the US, allegedly a democracy, to follow the will of the masses while respecting the rights of the minorities. If the majority want gun ownership to be legal, so be it. I do NOT suggest that a totalitarian goverment decide for us what we can and can't do. If we wind up killing each other more often than if we'd made a different decision, so be it. We voted, we pay the price. I'd rather live in a democracy where the people choose than under a dictatorial regime. Have you got a plan to change the minds of some 300 million people?

Fair point, but you also need points of view like BG's presented at regular intervals ...

One day, that point of view may strike a chord...

[FBM]

Agreed. And when they get to be the voting majority, we'll go that way. I don't think it's either possible or wise to try to engineer a culture from the top down. I don't know of any place where that's worked out very well so far.

[Blind groper]

Have you got a plan to change the minds of some 300 million people?

According to Wiki, the gun supporters in the USA are between 40% and 50% of the population. So 300 million may not be the correct number.

Let me bring this discussion back down to Earth.

To FBM.

Unlike Seth, I get the impression that you are somewhat realistic in your attitudes. You know, and I know, that this is just a discussion. It is certainly not something to get emotional about. I do not have the power even to influence anything my own government does, and I certainly cannot influence any change in the USA.

Bearing this in mind, would you at least make the following concessions?

1. The USA has a problem. That problem is the very large numbers of people being killed or maimed by firearms.
2. The biggest contributor to that problem is hand guns.
3. It would be a very good thing to get most of those hand guns out of the hands of non police.