Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Coito ergo sum]

If this was your life on the line, wouldn't you want your lawyer to have FBI official forensics rather than some private company NOT hired by your lawyer or anyone you know?

Sure but the cops are generally trying to put the suspect in jail. They aren't independent. They are on the side that wants to convict the suspect. That is why a suspect is well-advised not to say anything to police and not to answer any questions. Zimmerman disregarded this tried and true advise, and cooperated with the police. He answered questions, and there is no allegation he refused to answer any questions or cooperate in any way. Nothing is, of course, stopping the FBI from doing anything. The fact that a private video company did something doesn't in any way prevent the FBI from doing whatever it is that they do. Typically, however, the FBI isn't in the business of preparing exculpatory evidence. If they have exculpatory evidence, they are supposed to give it to the defense, but they certainly aren't in the business of making the defense's case for them.

[MrJonno]

Thats actually a reason the police themselves should not be involved in forensics, The Forensics people should have only one loyalty to the courts/judge not to the defence or prosecution. In theory you shouldnt need two sets of forensics for the defence /prosecution. Even after privatisation they are still seperate from the police

Have to admit when I watch Dexter (great program) it amazes me to see forensics scientist being based in the same building as the police never mind going down to the pub/bar with them. There job should be to collect and produce evidence not to secure a prosection

[kiki5711]

Zimmerman disregarded this tried and true advise, and cooperated with the police. He answered questions, and there is no allegation he refused to answer any questions or cooperate in any way. .

And because he cooperated with the police, instantly he's innocent. Yea, right.

Code: Select all

 Nothing is, of course, stopping the FBI from doing anything.  The fact that a private video company did something doesn't in any way prevent the FBI from doing whatever it is that they do. Typically, however, the FBI isn't in the business of preparing exculpatory evidence. If they have exculpatory evidence, they are supposed to give it to the defense, but they certainly aren't in the business of making the defense's case for them.

The FBI is not going to do any forensic investigation if there's no case for them to do so, and Zimmerman being released and not charged with anything, FBI had no reason to intervene.

But I'm pretty sure they will eventually.

[kiki5711]

Also if you listen carefully again to the tape conversation zimmerman had with the dispatcher, he says at one point "he' coming towards me, he's checking me out..." then he says "now he's running away". THat's when dispatcher tells him not to follow him. OBVIOUSLY zimmerman STILL followed him

Actually, not. I've posted the text of the 911 audio above, and if you follow it, Zimmerman obeyed the 911 operator and lost sight of Martin. He was coordinating with the dispatcher where to meet the police cruiser which was en route.

Yup, I think we have two different set of ears. You hear just what you want to hear.

It is clear on the tape that he says, "oh, now he's running away".

"Running away" to me means running away from him. Then he continued to follow him against the order from the dispatcher. He didn't go to the spot he said he'd meat the police and there met up with Martin in some mysterious way, unless Martin somehow ended up at that spot also, for what reason, I don't know. Which we know from the tapes did NOT happen.

[Coito ergo sum]

Thats actually a reason the police themselves should not be involved in forensics, The Forensics people should have only one loyalty to the courts/judge not to the defence or prosecution. In theory you shouldnt need two sets of forensics for the defence /prosecution. Even after privatisation they are still seperate from the police

Have to admit when I watch Dexter (great program) it amazes me to see forensics scientist being based in the same building as the police never mind going down to the pub/bar with them. There job should be to collect and produce evidence not to secure a prosection

The job of the prosecution is, technically, not to "secure a prosecution," it is to "see that justice is done" - whatever it is, and if that means freeing the innocent, then that is what it means. The job of the police is not to secure prosecutions, but to investigate crime and make arrests where there is probable cause to arrest.

Of course, the reality of the situation is that when police make an arrest they become vested in having arrested the right person. If a cop has to later admit that he arrested the wrong person, then that doesn't look good. People don't like being arrested by mistake, and they have a legitimate right to be pissed off if they are. So, once cops figure they have the right guy, they can become wedded to that proposition. Prosecutors are lauded for their conviction rates, because the assumption is that they wouldn't prosecute someone if there wasn't evidence of guilt. Nobody wants to be a prosecutor with a 60% conviction rate. LOL. So, the practicalities put pressure on the theory.

Forensics is associated with the police, because it is the police who are conducting the investigation. That's what cops do - look for evidence of a crime, and that is what investigation is. So, if they go to a crime scene and find a bunch of hairs, they decide to have a forensic analysis, how can they ever not be the ones sending it to forensics for analysis? The forensic lab is created and funded by the State, and I don't see right off hand who else will do that.

[Coito ergo sum]

Zimmerman disregarded this tried and true advise, and cooperated with the police. He answered questions, and there is no allegation he refused to answer any questions or cooperate in any way. .

And because he cooperated with the police, instantly he's innocent. Yea, right.

Code: Select all

 Nothing is, of course, stopping the FBI from doing anything.  The fact that a private video company did something doesn't in any way prevent the FBI from doing whatever it is that they do. Typically, however, the FBI isn't in the business of preparing exculpatory evidence. If they have exculpatory evidence, they are supposed to give it to the defense, but they certainly aren't in the business of making the defense's case for them.

The FBI is not going to do any forensic investigation if there's no case for them to do so, and Zimmerman being released and not charged with anything, FBI had no reason to intervene.

But I'm pretty sure they will eventually.

No, I didn't say that. You're the one saying he's instantly guilty.

[kiki5711]

Zimmerman disregarded this tried and true advise, and cooperated with the police. He answered questions, and there is no allegation he refused to answer any questions or cooperate in any way. .

Again, picking and twisting my words.

Your statement clearly implies that you believe zimmerman is innocent.

What I said was, just because he didn't lawyer up right away, does not mean he is innocent. People usually cooperate with the innitial investigation to make it appear that they are innocent and have nothing to hide. It doesn't automatically mean that they are in the clear. As time will tell.

[FBM]

I love the way people are academically, technically, grudgingly and briefly admitting that they don't really know what happened that night, but fervently pushing their politically and emotionally preferred conclusions and condemnations nonetheless.

Maybe I was unrealistic in hoping for more acute reasoning skills out of atheists and skeptics compared to the general public. Silly me. This being the case, I wonder what there is that we could call "progress" in all this reasoning and skeptical discernment that we like to pat ourselves on the back so much for?

[Coito ergo sum]

Zimmerman disregarded this tried and true advise, and cooperated with the police. He answered questions, and there is no allegation he refused to answer any questions or cooperate in any way. .

Again, picking and twisting my words.

Wrong. That is what you did to my words when you took one, isolated blurb and addressed that out of context, as if I'm basing my whole view of this on whether he cooperated with police and answered questions. I provided a whole slew of facts and reasons why the incident is not as clear as you make it out to be, and why I don't jump to the conclusion that he is guilty. I never said, however, that he was innocent. I said that based on the facts that we know - including those that you have referred to - it is not at all clear that Zimmerman did anything wrong.

Your statement clearly implies that you believe zimmerman is innocent.

Nope. Your statement clearly implies, if not outright expressly states, that you think he is guilty. My statement expressly states, and implies, that the situation is not as clear as you make it out to be. That may well be why the prosecutor canceled the Grand Jury hearing the other day.

The prosecutor, who knows more about the case than you do, would not let it go to a grand jury. You know what they say a grand jury in legal circles? A grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.

What I said was, just because he didn't lawyer up right away, does not mean he is innocent.

Of course not. And, just because he had a gun doesn't mean he's guilty.

People usually cooperate with the innitial investigation to make it appear that they are innocent and have nothing to hide. It doesn't automatically mean that they are in the clear. As time will tell.

Guilty people who cooperate with police usually get themselves convicted by doing so. People who are evidently innocent such that innocence can be demonstrated objectively and corroborated, generally get themselves ruled out as a suspect early.

[kiki5711]

Well, the courts may prove me wrong.

However, until then, majority of people that heard the recording, find zimmerman at fault.

It seems like some people here just don't want that to happen.

[FBM]

One post full of sloppy thinking after another. Wtf. May as well be theists, if all we're going to do is replace religious delusion with political delusion.

[MrJonno]

Forensics is associated with the police, because it is the police who are conducting the investigation. That's what cops do - look for evidence of a crime, and that is what investigation is. So, if they go to a crime scene and find a bunch of hairs, they decide to have a forensic analysis, how can they ever not be the ones sending it to forensics for analysis? The forensic lab is created and funded by the State, and I don't see right off hand who else will do that.

As far as I know the only place forensics is associated with the police is in the US. They may collect evidence but generally its a non-police organisation that exams it.
Recently the government foolishly shutdown our National Forensics Lab (state funding is fine but the organisations need to be seperate) and its been replaced with private labs but they are at least still in theory independent of the police. Of course the police might use labs that give them 'better' results. I did a 1st year uni science degree as part of my biology ones which doesnt make me an expert but it did strongly emphasie this

The idea that someone is given a DNA sample and asked to see if its person X then goes down the pub with policeman who gave it to them is an appalling idea and its only American TV that makes this seem 'normal'

[kiki5711]

so far, everyone has been saying, it's not his fault, he had the right, he was attacked first, look at the police report, he didn't do anything wrong, everyone else is racist if they see it different in favor of martin

I have not seen one post questioning anything other than "what was trayvon doing there" "he probably attacked zimmerman first" "look at the gash on his head" (from some video someone could have possibly altered it) it wasn't the FBI or any police force, because there is no case, but all of a sudden, to all of you. zimmerman is in the clear.

how's that for justice? I'd kill myself first before having you on my jury.

[kiki5711]

Forensics is associated with the police, because it is the police who are conducting the investigation. That's what cops do - look for evidence of a crime, and that is what investigation is

No shit sherlock! Thanks for the enlightement!

THE POINT IS, there was NO investigation of ANYTHING, because he was cleared of all charges.

[FBM]

This thread is an embarrassment to critical thinking. May as well have shot Aristotle and all those who built upon his work and just kept on just doing and saying whatever felt best at the moment without analyzing a damned thing. God/political persuasion/emotional bias be praised.