Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[FBM]

We could wait for all the relevant evidence to come to light instead of jumping to conclusions: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/03/justi ... ?hpt=hp_c2

[Seth]

In my experience with giving police reports of an incident and their initial description of what they saw, is 1/3 of the truth. The person left to be questioned, undoubtedly presents the scene in his favor to cover his butt.

And I am talking from personal experience.

The report from the police in addition to a statement given is very much a tiny fraction of what "really" happened. Zimmerman will say anything to make it sound in his favor, and by the time police comes, it's an opportunity to make it look like whatever would sound like the truth favoring Zimmerman.

The real facts don't come out until all evidence is put together to re create of what really happened which eventually will come out.

Which is why YOU should wait till that evidence has been collected, collated and presented to the DA and the jury before deciding that Zimmerman is a racist murder.

[kiki5711]

Where is the evidence that Zimmerman picked a fight? You're assuming that. Apparently, from the evidence we've been talking about, Zimmerman at most followed the guy through the neighborhood. I presume that Zimmerman has as much right to walk around the neighborhood as Martin, no?

Great point! But somehow, Zimmerman didn't feel that way. ie having the same right to walk through this neighborhood as himself. If you listen to his voice with the dispatcher he's clearly "psyching up" to not this "asshole" get away with it, as in his mind he thought these "black guys with hoodies" always do.

[kiki5711]

In my experience with giving police reports of an incident and their initial description of what they saw, is 1/3 of the truth. The person left to be questioned, undoubtedly presents the scene in his favor to cover his butt.

And I am talking from personal experience.

The report from the police in addition to a statement given is very much a tiny fraction of what "really" happened. Zimmerman will say anything to make it sound in his favor, and by the time police comes, it's an opportunity to make it look like whatever would sound like the truth favoring Zimmerman.

The real facts don't come out until all evidence is put together to re create of what really happened which eventually will come out.

Which is why YOU should wait till that evidence has been collected, collated and presented to the DA and the jury before deciding that Zimmerman is a racist murder.

I already said that.

[kiki5711]

We could wait for all the relevant evidence to come to light instead of jumping to conclusions: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/03/justi ... ?hpt=hp_c2

If that bump on his head is from the struggle, it wouldn't be unusuall while struggling with someone. It does not come to conclusion that Zimmerman didn't attack him first.

If someone started following you at night, wouldn't you get a bit paranoid? We don't know if words were exchanged between them, and who pushed who first.

But I think, if Martin's phone was still on during the struggle, and the girlfriend heard it all, it may reveal a lot of truth.

[Coito ergo sum]

Zimmerman was technically a spic, short for hispanic.

Are you retarded or do you think I am? Why do you feel a need to point that out. Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows this already!

No, I am not retarded. That is a personal attack.

You keep bringing up race here, as if the hispanic Zimmerman ought to be assumed to be a racist. If you're going to keep pointing out that this a racist crime, I'm going to keep pointing out that Zimmerman is a minority, and he is being characterized as white when he really isn't.

You quoted a false transcript of the 911 call in your attempt to characterize him as a racist. You quoted the doctored NBC recording, which made it look like he made it a point to say Martin was black when he did not in fact do that. You then, incidentally, said it was "Racist" to spread incorrect information about this case -- while at the same time spreading false information about this case.

You claimed to be going only by the audio tape and what you heard on the audio tape, and then you proceeded to rely mostly on information not found on the audio tape.

Now, I don't want to respond to your snotty comment in kind, because that gets the mods in a huff, and we really don't want this to degenerate into a shouting match. But, frankly, you're in no position to be questioning anyone's mental acuity here. You haven't come across on this issue as particularly brilliant or incisive, and your grasp of the facts of the case has been selective and rather thin, lacking in depth of understanding.

You've seemed overly emotional, and you've become wedded to a particular position -- you're pot-committed, as they say in poker, and you're not willing to fold your hand.

[Seth]

In my experience with giving police reports of an incident and their initial description of what they saw, is 1/3 of the truth. The person left to be questioned, undoubtedly presents the scene in his favor to cover his butt.

And I am talking from personal experience.

The report from the police in addition to a statement given is very much a tiny fraction of what "really" happened. Zimmerman will say anything to make it sound in his favor, and by the time police comes, it's an opportunity to make it look like whatever would sound like the truth favoring Zimmerman.

The real facts don't come out until all evidence is put together to re create of what really happened which eventually will come out.

Which is why YOU should wait till that evidence has been collected, collated and presented to the DA and the jury before deciding that Zimmerman is a racist murder.

I already said that.

That he was a racist murderer? Yes, I think you did, or at least you implied that on a number of occasions.

Also, there's this:



Dagnabit, don't you just hate it when the actual evidence debunks racist claims like yours?

[kiki5711]

Zimmerman was technically a spic, short for hispanic.

Are you retarded or do you think I am? Why do you feel a need to point that out. Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows this already!

No, I am not retarded. That is a personal attack.

You keep bringing up race here, as if the hispanic Zimmerman ought to be assumed to be a racist. If you're going to keep pointing out that this a racist crime, I'm going to keep pointing out that Zimmerman is a minority, and he is being characterized as white when he really isn't.

You quoted a false transcript of the 911 call in your attempt to characterize him as a racist. You quoted the doctored NBC recording, which made it look like he made it a point to say Martin was black when he did not in fact do that. You then, incidentally, said it was "Racist" to spread incorrect information about this case -- while at the same time spreading false information about this case.

You claimed to be going only by the audio tape and what you heard on the audio tape, and then you proceeded to rely mostly on information not found on the audio tape.

Now, I don't want to respond to your snotty comment in kind, because that gets the mods in a huff, and we really don't want this to degenerate into a shouting match. But, frankly, you're in no position to be questioning anyone's mental acuity here. You haven't come across on this issue as particularly brilliant or incisive, and your grasp of the facts of the case has been selective and rather thin, lacking in depth of understanding.

You've seemed overly emotional, and you've become wedded to a particular position -- you're pot-committed, as they say in poker, and you're not willing to fold your hand.

You dimwit, I'm not trying to make it into racial war. I'm commenting on what I heard and reports I read.

[kiki5711]

In my experience with giving police reports of an incident and their initial description of what they saw, is 1/3 of the truth. The person left to be questioned, undoubtedly presents the scene in his favor to cover his butt.

And I am talking from personal experience.

The report from the police in addition to a statement given is very much a tiny fraction of what "really" happened. Zimmerman will say anything to make it sound in his favor, and by the time police comes, it's an opportunity to make it look like whatever would sound like the truth favoring Zimmerman.

The real facts don't come out until all evidence is put together to re create of what really happened which eventually will come out.

Which is why YOU should wait till that evidence has been collected, collated and presented to the DA and the jury before deciding that Zimmerman is a racist murder.

I already said that.

That he was a racist murderer? Yes, I think you did, or at least you implied that on a number of occasions.

Also, there's this:



Dagnabit, don't you just hate it when the actual evidence debunks racist claims like yours?

I never said he was a racist murderer. I just said that in his description to the dispatcher, his tone of how he said and why he was following Martin, suggests some prejudice.

[Coito ergo sum]

Where is the evidence that Zimmerman picked a fight? You're assuming that. Apparently, from the evidence we've been talking about, Zimmerman at most followed the guy through the neighborhood. I presume that Zimmerman has as much right to walk around the neighborhood as Martin, no?

Great point! But somehow, Zimmerman didn't feel that way. ie having the same right to walk through this neighborhood as himself. If you listen to his voice with the dispatcher he's clearly "psyching up" to not this "asshole" get away with it, as in his mind he thought these "black guys with hoodies" always do.

You again mischaracterize what Zimmerman said on the 911 tape. He did not say "black guys with hoodies." The only time he mentioned the guy's race was when the dispatcher specifically asked him what race he was. When asked, he answered. That is nothing remotely like what you've just characterized him as doing.

And, Zimmerman dialed the 911 call. He reported Martin walking around and basically eyeing up the houses and "staring."

Martin starts approaching Zimmerman first, apparently Zimmerman feels menaced by this because of his words to the dispatcher. Martin starts to run off, and Zimmerman is told not to follow him and then says "ok" and doesn't follow him. The rest of the call is spent with the dispatcher and Zimmerman coordinating where to meet the police officers. The call ends.

Here it is in full: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... erman.html

There is nothing at all racist about Zimmerman in that call. Everything he does in that call sounds right and proper, doesn't it? If not, what is it you have a problem with?

Next, Zimmerman says he was jumped by Mr. Martin. That is consistent with the injuries to Zimmerman, and is consistent with Martin initially menacing Zimmerman at the beginning of the 911 call.

Not sure what you're relying on here, but when you claimed you were relying totally on the audiotape, you have to have either not read the full transcript, or just figured that other stuff you heard on sources confirming your preconceived notion were drawn from the audiotape.

[Coito ergo sum]

I never said he was a racist murderer. I just said that in his description to the dispatcher, his tone of how he said and why he was following Martin, suggests some prejudice.

Really? Where in the transcript, exactly?

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got
something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does
anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the
clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the
clubhouse.
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh
you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?

Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones]
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the
officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the
club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they
go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes
then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the
area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome.

[Coito ergo sum]

You dimwit, I'm not trying to make it into racial war. I'm commenting on what I heard and reports I read.

Now I'm a dimwit?

Maybe you ought to look at the primary evidence, rather than some agenda-driven secondary source?

You ARE trying to make it a racial thing, because you keep bringing race into it, and you make specific reference to going out and shooting blacks and hispanics. If it's not racial, then why are you putting it in racist terms?

[Coito ergo sum]

It doesn't matter how political it gets, the whole point of the rule of law is to PREVENT people from being forced to stand trial if the evidence against them is so weak that a conviction is unlikely. The police only need probable cause to arrest, but the burden of proof that the DA must meet at trial is substantially higher, it's "guilt beyond any reasonable doubt," and the DA cannot lawfully proceed unless he has sufficient evidence to prove his case.

I guess we will see how good the prosecutors are going to be.

They have enough of them working on it. I am sure if they have a case, they'll be able to puzzle it together. It's their job, and they have nearly unlimited resources.

[FBM]

We could wait for all the relevant evidence to come to light instead of jumping to conclusions: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/03/justi ... ?hpt=hp_c2

If that bump on his head is from the struggle, it wouldn't be unusuall while struggling with someone. It does not come to conclusion that Zimmerman didn't attack him first.

If someone started following you at night, wouldn't you get a bit paranoid? We don't know if words were exchanged between them, and who pushed who first.

But I think, if Martin's phone was still on during the struggle, and the girlfriend heard it all, it may reveal a lot of truth.

Again, you make my point for me by pointing out how much we don't know and by rational extension, how foolish it is to jump to conclusions on who is guilty, who started it, why, etc...

[Warren Dew]

That actually looks pretty painful. Where does it come from?