Trade Wars and how to win 'em

[Scot Dutchy]

Do you live in a democracy? From my viewpoint you dont.

Wtf does that have to do with what socialism and communism are?

Do you? I dont think so. Which definitions are you using? There are no fixed standard definitions. You are stuck in Australia. Ask people from different countrie what they believe what is socialism, communism or even democracy. Do you consider Australia a pure democracy?

[Hermit]

All it takes is Trump to be President, and suddenly the Left are all free traders.

Now, Democrats see NAFTA as sacrosanct and free trade deals as essential.

We are against tariffs. We have always been against tariffs.

Wrong.

NAFTA was signed into legislation by Bill Clinton in 1993. Hillary Clinton commented on it. "I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth"

....against the weight of most of the Demcratic Party at the time.

To call a simple majority "most" is, to put it charitably, misleading in this context. In the Senate 27 (48%) Democrats voted in favour of NAFTA, 28 against it and 1 did not vote. In the House Democrats' opposition was hardly overwhelming either, with 102 (40%) Democrats voting in favour and 156 against.

This is in stark contrast to the Republicans' vote, especially in the House, where over 77% of their Senators and 75% of their reps voted in favour of NAFTA. Let's see how they'll vote on Trump's tariffs, eh? We are for tariffs. We have always been for tariffs?

Furthermore, you are presenting a false dichotomy. Both, protectionism and free trade have advantages and defects. You can be opposed to either, depending on how exactly it is designed.

You also keep persisting with mistaking the Democrats for "the Left".

I did not mistake the Left for the Democrats, as I said the Left and the Democrats.

That distinction is not explicitly made above. Apologies for missing the post where you announced that you no longer regard the two as the same.

[Svartalf]

Sorry North European Socialism still exists. Just because it does not match up to communism it is still socialism.

Communism is stateless. You need to swat up on your political ideologies.

Sorry. Stateless? Since when? How can the Chinese Communist Party be stateless.

China was never a truly communist country, see how easily it turned into a purely capitalist one party oligarchy after Mao's death, that's not communism or socialist, that's something basically right wing... possibly even more right wing than Nazi Germany, since the NSDAP did have some socialist policies that China never had... I don't know enough about Italian fascism to make a proper comparison.

[Scot Dutchy]

Svarty

I was trying to explain to pErv that definitions are based on your own point of view. There is no standard definition for political ideologies. Each country develops its own brand that from outside appears to be the way you see it.

[Svartalf]

like the fact that there is no 'left' in American politics?

[Scot Dutchy]

like the fact that there is no 'left' in American politics?

Exactly. Yet for some there is a left. Ask 42.

[Tero]

(Svarty's post)
It's kind of an interesting phenomenon. People in Kansas are resigned to work for minimum wage jobs here and there. Only the airplane manufacture places have unions. The rest of the people work shit jobs in food processing. They then go march and protest abortion and evolution. The new working class. Barely literate. Kansas City used to have a publisher that published "blue books" to educate the working classes, early 1900s. Novel ideas such as socialism and atheism.

[JimC]

Sorry North European Socialism still exists. Just because it does not match up to communism it is still socialism.

Communism is stateless. You need to swat up on your political ideologies.

Sorry. Stateless? Since when? How can the Chinese Communist Party be stateless.

Oh ffs. China is state socialism/capitalism. Next you'll be telling me that North Korea (Democratic People's Party of Korea) is a democracy.

The original Marxist theory wanted society to evolve into a stateless communism, but in practice, a monolithic, authoritarian state emerged, playing lip service to the rule of the proletariat...

[pErvinalia]

Svarty

I was trying to explain to pErv that definitions are based on your own point of view.

No they're not.

There is no standard definition for political ideologies.

Yes there is. Wiki will set you straight.

[Scot Dutchy]

Who writes wiki?

[Tero]

Authorities!

[Scot Dutchy]

Which ones?

[Forty Two]

Do you live in a democracy? From my viewpoint you dont.

Wtf does that have to do with what socialism and communism are?

Do you? I dont think so. Which definitions are you using? There are no fixed standard definitions. You are stuck in Australia. Ask people from different countrie what they believe what is socialism, communism or even democracy. Do you consider Australia a pure democracy?

In the Netherlands, socialism and communism are representative democracy with a capitalist economic system mixed with a generous welfare state.

[Forty Two]

All it takes is Trump to be President, and suddenly the Left are all free traders.

Now, Democrats see NAFTA as sacrosanct and free trade deals as essential.

We are against tariffs. We have always been against tariffs.

Wrong.

NAFTA was signed into legislation by Bill Clinton in 1993. Hillary Clinton commented on it. "I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth"

....against the weight of most of the Demcratic Party at the time.

To call a simple majority "most" is, to put it charitably, misleading in this context. In the Senate 27 (48%) Democrats voted in favour of NAFTA, 28 against it and 1 did not vote. In the House Democrats' opposition was hardly overwhelming either, with 102 (40%) Democrats voting in favour and 156 against.

This is in stark contrast to the Republicans' vote, especially in the House, where over 77% of their Senators and 75% of their reps voted in favour of NAFTA. Let's see how they'll vote on Trump's tariffs, eh? We are for tariffs. We have always been for tariffs?

Furthermore, you are presenting a false dichotomy. Both, protectionism and free trade have advantages and defects. You can be opposed to either, depending on how exactly it is designed.

I know the Republican party is pro NAFTA and anti-tarrif. That's the exact point I'm making. Trump is not the same as the Republican Party, and this is one of the areas where he is radically opposed to them, and has been for 30 years.

Only now, when it's Trump in favor of tariffs, instead of a union or a Democrat congressman, it's irresponsible.

The further left on the spectrum you go in the US, the more in favor of protections for American workers and American business you get. The right wing has, for 50 years now, been in favor of dropping tariffs to allow American companies to leave the US, go to Mexico or wherever, build a factory and pay workers pennies, and then resell cheap goods into the US.

That's what Trump's tariffs are designed to work against, and that's why Trump was against NAFTA, because while it gave us some cheap goods for a while, it also sucked the life out of US domestic industry.

You also keep persisting with mistaking the Democrats for "the Left".

I did not mistake the Left for the Democrats, as I said the Left and the Democrats.

That distinction is not explicitly made above. Apologies for missing the post where you announced that you no longer regard the two as the same.

They aren't the same, but there are left democrats. There are also more conservative democrats. But on the whole, the Democrat party is more left leaning than the Republican party. That much is obvious. That's the key different. The Republicans lean toward free market capitalism, and the Democrats lean toward either a regulatory state or on the farther left end, like the Dennis Kucinich wing, and the Bernie Sanders wing, of the Democratic Party, they lean socialist.

[Forty Two]

(Svarty's post)
It's kind of an interesting phenomenon. People in Kansas are resigned to work for minimum wage jobs here and there. Only the airplane manufacture places have unions. The rest of the people work shit jobs in food processing. They then go march and protest abortion and evolution. The new working class. Barely literate. Kansas City used to have a publisher that published "blue books" to educate the working classes, early 1900s. Novel ideas such as socialism and atheism.

Socialism is something to work for, then, is it? LOL.

Are you pro-socialism now?