Another London terror attack

[JimC]

Condemning is one thing, actively rooting out terrorists that lurk within their community is another.

Terrorists, as you noticed, lurk. They don't go around with "I am a Muslim terrorist" sign stapled to their foreheads. Has it occurred to you that they are more interested in telling law abiding Muslims about their intentions than corrupt police officers are in telling law abiding members of the police services about theirs?

Also what Animavore posted.

Jim, the more you post on political matters, the more you reveal yourself to be a blindly prejudiced right winger.

Fuck off, Hermit, you are showing yourself as a blind PC lefty who has to tow the party line...

[Hermit]

Condemning is one thing, actively rooting out terrorists that lurk within their community is another.

Terrorists, as you noticed, lurk. They don't go around with "I am a Muslim terrorist" sign stapled to their foreheads. Has it occurred to you that they are more interested in telling law abiding Muslims about their intentions than corrupt police officers are in telling law abiding members of the police services about theirs?

Also what Animavore posted.

Jim, the more you post on political matters, the more you reveal yourself to be a blindly prejudiced right winger.

Fuck off, Hermit, you are showing yourself as a blind PC lefty who has to tow the party line...

And now you are emulating Coito's debating technique. Thanks for confirming the accuracy of my post's last line. Shall I hold my breath waiting for you to address the ones above it?

[JimC]

Sure, the whole body of my posting is as right wing as 42...

I have a particular view of a specific issue, islamic terrorism. It is far removed from a DaveDodo or Pauline Hanson line, but I argue for a somewhat harder position than is fashionable on the left, who are deeply conflicted by their inability to put aside a knee-jerk response to criticism of islam, or suggestions of a different way of dealing with violent terrorists, so they automatically and blindly conflate such suggestions with right wing racism.

Your characterisation of me as right wing is as laughable as Seth's characterisation of Obama as a Marxist...

[Hermit]

Sure, the whole body of my posting is as right wing as 42...

Who claimed it was?

Your characterisation of me as right wing is as laughable as Seth's characterisation of Obama as a Marxist...

Right wing is perhaps not the best description for your view of habeas corpus as a legal nicety. There is a more accurate one. It'll come to me in a minute.

[JimC]

This whole debate is a classic example of the absurd polarisation that comes via heated politics. There is fast developing a massive (truly) right wing push for extreme security measures, a rabid hatred of muslims of any stamp, an end to "brown" migration, internment camps and the whole shebang, vs a blind response from the left that says nothing about terrorist attacks (other than we probably deserve them for our militaristic and imperialist sins) and that we are in full brotherhood with all those lovely muslims, who would never hurt a fucking fly...

The middle ground of searching carefully for pragmatic solutions, which may or may not require some minor legal adjustments, with appropriate oversight, and a more demanding attitude towards muslim leadership taking responsibility is characterised as weak by the right, and fascist by the left...

I can almost guarantee you that the populist trend is definitely heading to the first of these extremes...

"The One On The Right Is On The Left"

There once was a musical troupe
A pickin' singin' folk group
They sang the mountain ballads
And the folk songs of our land

They were long on musical ability
Folks thought they would go far
But political incompatibility led to their downfall

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear was a Methodist

This musical aggregation toured the entire nation
Singing the traditional ballads
And the folk songs of our land
They performed with great virtuosity
And soon they were the rage
But political animosity prevailed upon the stage

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear burned his driver's license

Well the curtain had ascended
A hush fell on the crowd
As thousands there were gathered to hear The folk songs of our land
But they took their politics seriously
And that night at the concert hall
As the audience watched deliriously
They had a free-for-all

Well, the one on the right was on the bottom
And the one in the middle was on the top
And the one on the left got a broken arm
And the guy in the rear, said, "Oh dear"

Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folk group
Don't go mixin' politics with the folk songs of our land
Just work on harmony and diction
Play your banjo well
And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself

Now, the one on the left works in a bank
And the one in the middle drives a truck
The one on the right's an all-night dee

[Hermit]

Condemning is one thing, actively rooting out terrorists that lurk within their community is another.

Terrorists, as you noticed, lurk. They don't go around with "I am a Muslim terrorist" sign stapled to their foreheads. Has it occurred to you that they are more interested in telling law abiding Muslims about their intentions than corrupt police officers are in telling law abiding members of the police services about theirs?

Fuck off, Hermit, you are showing yourself as a blind PC lefty who has to tow the party line...

And now you are emulating Coito's debating technique. Thanks for confirming the accuracy of my post's last line. Shall I hold my breath waiting for you to address the ones above it?

Just as well I decided against holding my breath, aye?

[pErvinalia]

Jim, when moderates hold the views you do, the more likely the right are to feel emboldened to pursue their draconian policies. Small scale attacks are really going to be unavoidable in an open liberal democracy. Notice how there have been very few large scale attacks in the west since 911 and the big London one? It's been said, and I strongly suspect it is true, that intelligence and police agencies have foiled a number of potential large attacks using the powers (which are relatively draconian) that they have now.

[cronus]

I'm neither left nor right. Want to enjoy a bacon butty and a pint without worrying about a Middle East incursion on my dinner plate. So, round em up...the bad ones. And if they have somewhere to go send them there....refugees shouldn't be here unless they are from immediate neighbours. And the Saudis should have taken the Syrians in. Not a ticking timebomb of cultural catastrophe like has happened with Germany or France...so I'm with Jim.

[pErvinalia]

You're a troll. But on the slim chance that you are serious then you are decidedly right wing with views like that.

[Animavore]

And it won't be enough until they have cleansed their house of the scum within it.

This is just a ridiculous demand. And one which easily applies to any group. You could say to white Americans to cleanse the house of the scum within it. Given that white terrorists are the biggest threat. Instead a proportion of Americans have actively voted in the scum holding no accountability to themselves.

The British and the Americans have both recently made multi-billion dollar arms deal with the main source of Islamic terrorist funding. Where are all the white people making citizens arrests on Trump and May for treason?

Even if a group of Muslims pulled someone up to the cop station and told them he was a potential terrorist because he was spouting hate speech, how would they prove he was dong more than just talking? Do you think Muslims know where all the cells, safe houses and hideouts are? Do you expect some Muslims to take it upon themselves to infiltrate possible terrorist groups at their own risks for the purpose of exposing them?

[JimC]

Condemning is one thing, actively rooting out terrorists that lurk within their community is another.

Terrorists, as you noticed, lurk. They don't go around with "I am a Muslim terrorist" sign stapled to their foreheads. Has it occurred to you that they are more interested in telling law abiding Muslims about their intentions than corrupt police officers are in telling law abiding members of the police services about theirs?

Fuck off, Hermit, you are showing yourself as a blind PC lefty who has to tow the party line...

And now you are emulating Coito's debating technique. Thanks for confirming the accuracy of my post's last line. Shall I hold my breath waiting for you to address the ones above it?

Just as well I decided against holding my breath, aye?

OK, to address your point (which is mainly hyperbole):

It's not a matter of the jihadists telling anyone of their intentions. One way or another, they are immersed in the muslim community. Their fellow muslims have a better chance in many ways of spotting young men heading down the jihadist path. I'm not saying this does not happen to a degree already, but the islamic leadership would be wise to ramp it up to the maximum possible; I suspect that either a fear of physical harm, or a feeling of somehow being a traitor to their religion may sometimes get in the way of effective communication to the authorities. I cannot believe there is no possible improvement in this internal process...

Either way, as I've said repeatedly, it is powerfully in the interests of the moderate Islamic community to not only clean out their own house (to the extent they can - I know it will never be 100% effective...), but to be seen to be doing so. That will not only hopefully nip at least a greater number of terrorist acts in the bud, but reduce the backlash that is inevitably growing (yes, often fostered by racist rednecks) against their community.

[JimC]

And it won't be enough until they have cleansed their house of the scum within it.

This is just a ridiculous demand. And one which easily applies to any group. You could say to white Americans to cleanse the house of the scum within it. Given that white terrorists are the biggest threat. Instead a proportion of Americans have actively voted in the scum holding no accountability to themselves.

The British and the Americans have both recently made multi-billion dollar arms deal with the main source of Islamic terrorist funding. Where are all the white people making citizens arrests on Trump and May for treason?

Even if a group of Muslims pulled someone up to the cop station and told them he was a potential terrorist because he was spouting hate speech, how would they prove he was dong more than just talking? Do you think Muslims know where all the cells, safe houses and hideouts are? Do you expect some Muslims to take it upon themselves to infiltrate possible terrorist groups at their own risks for the purpose of exposing them?

So, we simply have to passively accept that there is nothing that we or the islamic community itself can do to weed out the murderous scum who are killing people, and simply say that nasty white terrorists are doing it too, so don't put pressure on the poor misunderstood muslims...

That supine attitude, and a steady continuing number of terror attacks in the west will almost certainly lead to an increasingly nasty populist backlash, where the attempted solutions by authorities responding to public pressure will be violent, unpleasant and very counter-productive...

[JimC]

I'm neither left nor right. Want to enjoy a bacon butty and a pint without worrying about a Middle East incursion on my dinner plate. So, round em up...the bad ones. And if they have somewhere to go send them there....refugees shouldn't be here unless they are from immediate neighbours. And the Saudis should have taken the Syrians in. Not a ticking timebomb of cultural catastrophe like has happened with Germany or France...so I'm with Jim.

No, you're not...

[Animavore]

So, we simply have to passively accept that there is nothing that we or the islamic community itself can do to weed out the murderous scum who are killing people, and simply say that nasty white terrorists are doing it too, so don't put pressure on the poor misunderstood muslims...

I was pointing out the futility of such a demand. You added everything else in yourself.

That supine attitude, and a steady continuing number of terror attacks in the west will almost certainly lead to an increasingly nasty populist backlash, where the attempted solutions by authorities responding to public pressure will be violent, unpleasant and very counter-productive...

Well when they start sending Muslims into camps and committing genocide we'll kill those Nazi-types when the time comes and reset the World again.

[JimC]

Jim, when moderates hold the views you do, the more likely the right are to feel emboldened to pursue their draconian policies. Small scale attacks are really going to be unavoidable in an open liberal democracy. Notice how there have been very few large scale attacks in the west since 911 and the big London one? It's been said, and I strongly suspect it is true, that intelligence and police agencies have foiled a number of potential large attacks using the powers (which are relatively draconian) that they have now.

I disagree (see my post about polarisation). Without some pragmatic centrist views on his issue, which try to actually deal with the terrorists in a way that doesn't involve extreme solutions, populist opinion will only see the continuing leftist stance (which they will almost certainly reject as too supine and ineffective) as the only alternative to a Hanson style reaction, which they will therefore push governments to adopt. Simply said, there will be a massive popular rejection of your statement "Small scale attacks are really going to be unavoidable in an open liberal democracy." I know that is true to a degree, but it smacks of utter defeatism to Joe Public. Putting forward a series of practical but restrained measures which are designed to target terrorists more effectively than present gives an alternative to the extreme right solutions...