Time to suspend suspended sentences

[Hermit]

Sure, murder rates are affected by more than one variable, but if you want to tell me executions reduce murders, you need to explain why, in my country and many others, murder rates continued to fall after executions were made illegal.

No, I don't, and I don't for precisely the reason you mentioned: Murder rates are affected by more than one variable.

By the way, keep in mind that I was playing the devil's advocate. For a number of reasons I am unequivocally opposed to the death penalty.

[Seth]

It's stupid to try to extrapolate anything from Saudi Arabia. It's not anything like a civilised country.

Depends on your point of view. To them, it's a very civilized country, much more civilized than the Great Satan America. Muslim nations tend to have fairly low common crime rates because they chop the hands and heads off of repeat offenders, which despite BG's insistence, seems to be quite an effective deterrent. After all, they've been doing it for 1200 years now.

And it's not the death penalty that deters most crime in Saudi. It's the threat of being locked up in a hell hole, getting the shit beaten out of you, and even getting your hands cut off.

And you don't think getting your head chopped off isn't a deterrent? Silly boy.

That's a real deterrent, and it is likely to make a difference. Add to that the fact that Saudi is very low on alcohol and drugs, and high on religion, and it's no big surprise that general crime is low.

Yup. And Mussolini made the trains run on time.

But the death penalty is different. It's generally reserved for murder in the civilised world.

Yes it is. And treason.

And murder isn't generally done in a calm rational state of mind.

Except for the ones that are done in a calm, rational state of mind...rational for a psychopathic antisocial criminal anyway.

It's mostly done in a blind rage, when people completely lose it, and don't think of the consequences.

I'd say that since the majority of murders in the US are committed by minority gang members in the inner city as part of turf warfare, you're wrong and most murder is done in a cold, calculated manner among rival gangs.

In those moments, people don't stop to think about penalties.

So what? Just because they don't doesn't mean others don't. You have no way of knowing how many potential spousal murders or other types of revenge murder are deterred by the death penalty because, and I'm surprised I have to say this, if the crime is deterred, it doesn't happen, and nobody knows it would or might have happened but for the death penalty.

[Blind groper]

"Of the murders for which the circumstances surrounding the crimes were known, 39.6 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2013. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 24.4 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 36.2 percent of reported homicides." 

Seth

If you think most murders are done by gang members, then post evidence. Shouldn't be hard. The FBI compile and publish the statistics. If you cannot do this, do not expect anyone to believe you.

PS. The reason I am saying this is because I have seen a summary of FBI murder statistics, and your theory is wrong. The quote at the beginning of this post is from the FBI report.

[mistermack]

Of course, the rape, robbery and burglary figure includes a high number of people who lose it and go mental as well, and no death penalty would deter them till they come down from flipping.

Very few people would kill on a robbery or burglary in a calm rational state. They panic, and flip, and do something totally irrational. The threat of the death penalty doesn't enter their minds at that instant.

How do I know this? Because the USA has the death penalty, and has five times as many murders as we do. They are NOT deterred. If they were deterred, they wouldn't do it.
Facts beat bullshit every time.

[Seth]

Of course, the rape, robbery and burglary figure includes a high number of people who lose it and go mental as well, and no death penalty would deter them till they come down from flipping.

Very few people would kill on a robbery or burglary in a calm rational state. They panic, and flip, and do something totally irrational. The threat of the death penalty doesn't enter their minds at that instant.

How do I know this? Because the USA has the death penalty, and has five times as many murders as we do. They are NOT deterred. If they were deterred, they wouldn't do it.
Facts beat bullshit every time.

Except you cannot show how many murders were NOT committed because of the threat of the death penalty. Showing that murders are committed in spite of the death penalty only shows that some proportion of murderers are not deterred, not that the death penalty does not deter murders.

[mistermack]

Of course, the rape, robbery and burglary figure includes a high number of people who lose it and go mental as well, and no death penalty would deter them till they come down from flipping.

Very few people would kill on a robbery or burglary in a calm rational state. They panic, and flip, and do something totally irrational. The threat of the death penalty doesn't enter their minds at that instant.

How do I know this? Because the USA has the death penalty, and has five times as many murders as we do. They are NOT deterred. If they were deterred, they wouldn't do it.
Facts beat bullshit every time.

Except you cannot show how many murders were NOT committed because of the threat of the death penalty. Showing that murders are committed in spite of the death penalty only shows that some proportion of murderers are not deterred, not that the death penalty does not deter murders.

So your theory is that the USA ought to have about ten times the murder rate of the UK, not five times. But the death penalty is keeping it down to five times the UK rate?

That's some ace trolling.
Any ideas why that should be so? Maybe it's the right to bear arms ?

[Blind groper]

Prof. Pinker believes it is the combination of the vigilante mentality, and the right to bear arms. It is really obvious, when you start looking, just how much the vigilante mentality runs through American movies and TV shows. My guess is that at least a quarter of all action movies and dramas feature a person who can be described as a loner vigilante. If you look for the same thing on British TV, you would be struggling to find even one example. Maybe James Bond??? But I am not sure that the James Bond movies can still be described as being British.

We see it also in Seth's posts. He does not talk of using the authorities. He talks of dealing with problem people as a loner vigilante. He fails to understand that this attitude is a major reason why murder rates are so high in the USA.

[JimC]

But BG, you forget, Pinker is a marxist with an agenda of undermining the Land of the Free!

The name alone is a dead giveaway!

[Seth]

Of course, the rape, robbery and burglary figure includes a high number of people who lose it and go mental as well, and no death penalty would deter them till they come down from flipping.

Very few people would kill on a robbery or burglary in a calm rational state. They panic, and flip, and do something totally irrational. The threat of the death penalty doesn't enter their minds at that instant.

How do I know this? Because the USA has the death penalty, and has five times as many murders as we do. They are NOT deterred. If they were deterred, they wouldn't do it.
Facts beat bullshit every time.

Except you cannot show how many murders were NOT committed because of the threat of the death penalty. Showing that murders are committed in spite of the death penalty only shows that some proportion of murderers are not deterred, not that the death penalty does not deter murders.

So your theory is that the USA ought to have about ten times the murder rate of the UK, not five times. But the death penalty is keeping it down to five times the UK rate?

Could be.

That's some ace trolling.
Any ideas why that should be so? Maybe it's the right to bear arms ?

I don't know. But then again neither do you. I'm not making a claim, I'm dissecting your reasoning, which is faulty.

[Seth]

Prof. Pinker believes it is the combination of the vigilante mentality, and the right to bear arms. It is really obvious, when you start looking, just how much the vigilante mentality runs through American movies and TV shows. My guess is that at least a quarter of all action movies and dramas feature a person who can be described as a loner vigilante. If you look for the same thing on British TV, you would be struggling to find even one example. Maybe James Bond??? But I am not sure that the James Bond movies can still be described as being British.

We see it also in Seth's posts. He does not talk of using the authorities. He talks of dealing with problem people as a loner vigilante. He fails to understand that this attitude is a major reason why murder rates are so high in the USA.

Except of course both you and Pinker are wrong. As I've said before, you are incapable of distinguishing between self-defense and vigilantism.

What a mob of Indians did to a suspected rapist in India the other day was "vigilantism," whereas nothing I have suggested remotely approaches vigilantism.

As for the "mentality" of a right to keep and bear arms, I'd say Pinker is absolutely correct. That right, and the mentality that values that right, is exactly what makes us self-reliant, courageous, compassionate, altruistic, rational and sane free men and women and you mindless, slavish, dependent sheeple. And that's a good thing, for us. Not so much for you.

[Blind groper]

As for the "mentality" of a right to keep and bear arms, I'd say Pinker is absolutely correct. That right, and the mentality that values that right, is exactly what makes us .

...........into the western nation with the highest rate of mindless murders.

[Seth]

As for the "mentality" of a right to keep and bear arms, I'd say Pinker is absolutely correct. That right, and the mentality that values that right, is exactly what makes us .

...........into the western nation with the highest rate of mindless murders.

Which remains a nation of free persons armed for their own, and their nation's defense, unlike your pimple on the ass of the Pacific that couldn't defend itself against a troop of boy scouts, much less murderous criminals.

[mistermack]

As for the "mentality" of a right to keep and bear arms, I'd say Pinker is absolutely correct. That right, and the mentality that values that right, is exactly what makes us .

...........into the western nation with the highest rate of mindless murders.

Which remains a nation of free persons armed for their own, and their nation's defense, unlike your pimple on the ass of the Pacific that couldn't defend itself against a troop of boy scouts, much less murderous criminals.

I'm confused. Is this the same nation that ran in panic from Vietnam, a bunch of the poorest asians on the block? Having had their big fat asses kicked?

Oh yeh, it is.

[Seth]

As for the "mentality" of a right to keep and bear arms, I'd say Pinker is absolutely correct. That right, and the mentality that values that right, is exactly what makes us .

...........into the western nation with the highest rate of mindless murders.

Which remains a nation of free persons armed for their own, and their nation's defense, unlike your pimple on the ass of the Pacific that couldn't defend itself against a troop of boy scouts, much less murderous criminals.

I'm confused. Is this the same nation that ran in panic from Vietnam, a bunch of the poorest asians on the block? Having had their big fat asses kicked?

Oh yeh, it is.

The fault wasn't with the courage of the soldiers in Vietnam, it was with the fucking coward politicians who sent out boys into battle with both hands tied behind their backs because they feared getting their political images tarnished.

As the first Gulf War proved, along with WWII and a bunch of other conflicts, our soldiers are the most professional, courageous and deadly warriors in the world, and if you turn them loose to do the job the way it's supposed to be done, conflicts end with much, much, MUCH less bloodshed for everyone, and it ends decisively.

The only problem with American military capabilities and courage are cowardly politicians.

[Blind groper]

The Viet Nam war was associated with the most reprehensible behaviour by American soldiers, ranging from rapes, murders, 'fragging' officers, running from battle, smoking pot when on guard, and other problems. However, it was not because American soldiers are bad. Some are very good. The problems were for two reasons.
1. Those misbehaving soldiers were conscripts.
2. The misbehaving soldiers did not believe in what they were doing. Why should they fight and put their lives on the line for a cause they considered to be a load of crap?

In WWII, Italian soldiers had a reputation for cowardice. In fact, they were not cowards. They were just exactly the same as conscript soldiers in Viet Nam. They did not want to fight for Mussolini and his dreams of 'glory'. People do not make good soldiers unless they believe in what they were fighting for.**

I do not believe Americans are any better or worse as soldiers than anyone else. Americans are not brave, or cowardly, or strong, or weak. They are just human. When Seth claims Americans are somehow superior, he is just wanking himself. Americans are just people.

**My father fought in North Africa in WWII. On one occasion, he and another soldier, armed with just one rifle each, captured an entire company of Italians. They pointed their guns at the Italians and told them to surrender. The Italians put down their guns, put their hands on their heads, and with massive smiles on their faces, walked towards my dear old Dad and into captivity. The NZ soldiers used them to carry out assorted work, such as digging trenches. The Italians worked hard and always with apparent enjoyment, knowing that when the fighting started, they would be well to the rear. They were trusted prisoners, and given lots of freedom, since our guys knew they would not run off. My father was very fond of the Italians, and thought they were really nice people. In fact, he kept in touch with some of them and went back to Italy later and stayed with their families.