Jordan pilot hostage Moaz al-Kasasbeh 'burned alive'

[Seth]

I do not have an answer to the ISIS problem, but it is interesting to see how almost all the posters above are using their gonads instead of their brains to think with. Sure, the burning of the Jordanian pilot was an unforgivable atrocity, and it stirs up the emotions. However, a rational thinker can rise above his hormones and his emotions, and think things through instead of simply reacting. Something that is not terribly apparent in this thread, although rEvo did show some sense in his last post, which is nice to see.

I've though long and hard about it, and my conclusion is that anyone who claims that Islam justifies violence and engages in violence based on their belief in Islam is irredeemable and a clear and present danger to everyone else on the planet and that there is no way to disabuse them of their insanity using reason. Therefore the only alternative to protecting everyone else is to kill them all.

It is the Islamic radicals who create this necessity, and it is they who can put a stop to it by abjuring violence. I would say the same thing about Catholics or Protestants if they were doing what the Islamists are doing. In fact I have said the same thing about the IRA and their foes in Ireland. So long as they engage in violence based on religious beliefs and they harm others, the appropriate sanction is termination with extreme prejudice for the safety of everyone.

This applies to anyone who initiates deadly violence against others. Criminals, politicians, religious zealots, Atheists, Communists, Socialists, survivalists, despots, tyrants, fascists...anyone at all. If you initiate deadly force, then your consequence is that you are permanently removed from society as an act of collective self defense.

Applied vigorously and uniformly, soon enough those with a propensity or desire to initiate violence against others will meet their appropriate evolutionary end and society will be better off without them.

And the best way to accomplish this is for each individual in society to be trained and prepared to administer the cure whenever and wherever someone offers to initiate violence against them.

[Seth]

Can we all kill Merkans now with impunity because your democratically elected President was morally a war criminal?

No, but you can kill those Americans who initiate deadly force against others whenever and wherever you happen to encounter them.

[Seth]

The only principle that should matter is reducing the threat of terrorism. Creating MORE terrorists is clearly not the smartest thing to do.

Well, the only way to achieve that sole principle would be to surrender and submit to the World Caliphate and suffer in dhimmitude or become a convert to Islam.

Fuck that. We'll just keep killing the towel-head motherfuckers until they are all gone or they decide to abjure violence and live in peace with everybody else.

[piscator]

Can we all kill Merkans now with impunity because your democratically elected President was morally a war criminal?
That's the kind of retarded logic you are using.
In fact, it's worse, as people in democracy can be held more accountable for their government's actions than people in authoritarian hell holes. Luckily for you guys, you don't really have much of a democracy any more. But I'd gladly send the CEO's of walmart and apple over to fight on the frontlines in the war on trrrrsm.

...(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

...

[JimC]

I agree, but how do you DO that? They were creating terrorists long before Iraq I. Yeah Israel yeah infidels on Holy Land yeah yeah. Their reasons for flying airliners into skyscrapers were a bit thin. So kowtowing to them isn't going to stop them. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, after all. Their religious imperative is to forcibly convert or kill everybody else. You cannot negotiate with that sort of lunacy.

Sure, and killing all active ISIS soldiers would be just dandy, and that goes for all the other committed jihadis anywhere in the world. The problem is achieving that without the indiscriminate killing of others, which is both morally indefensible, and liable to generate further terrorists down the line. If ISIS is to be actually defeated, I can see no substitute for boots on ground in their territory. The big question is where does the world get those boots.
If ISIS were to execute a Chinese citizen, we might get somewhere. A PLA division or 2 might just get the job done...

But then, of course, they might just decide to stay...

[Blind groper]

The IRA was not defeated by killing them all. Nor will ISIS. There has to be an alternative. Certainly, they must be suppressed, and this is happening currently by arming and training Iraqi and Kurdish troops, and giving air support. This kind of action can be extended and increased. Ultimately, ISIS must be forced to the negotiation table.

[piscator]

The IRA was not defeated by killing them all. Nor will ISIS. There has to be an alternative. Certainly, they must be suppressed, and this is happening currently by arming and training Iraqi and Kurdish troops, and giving air support. This kind of action can be extended and increased. Ultimately, ISIS must be forced to the negotiation table.

By Iraqis who mostly agree with them?

Iraqis are not Brits, mate. Their loyalties are to their tribes and their particular reading of Islam, or the whip - not to their nations. They'll fold.
To see you antipodeans try to reason along the lines of "Countries" from the moral standpoint of your own peacetime culture either through denial or genuine naivete is almost comic. You'll get recruited eventually, and your fancypants little notions of civility will drop right in line with the rest of us as soon as you realize you're in a fight.

[mistermack]

Can we all kill Merkans now with impunity because your democratically elected President was morally a war criminal?

No, but you can kill those Americans who initiate deadly force against others whenever and wherever you happen to encounter them.

You mean George Bush, don't you. You're beginning to make sense.

[Blind groper]

[quote="piscator"]
By Iraqis who mostly agree with them?

Iraqis are not Brits, mate. Their loyalties are to their tribes and their particular reading of Islam, or the whip - not to their nations. They'll fold. [Quote]

That is an over-generalisation. Iraq is made up of a wide range of peoples, and some are quite ferocious, and hate ISIS. Yes, some Iraqis will fold. But there are many that will fight like scalded cats.

[piscator]

I agree, but how do you DO that? They were creating terrorists long before Iraq I. Yeah Israel yeah infidels on Holy Land yeah yeah. Their reasons for flying airliners into skyscrapers were a bit thin. So kowtowing to them isn't going to stop them. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, after all. Their religious imperative is to forcibly convert or kill everybody else. You cannot negotiate with that sort of lunacy.

Sure, and killing all active Nazi soldiers would be just dandy, and that goes for all the other committed SS anywhere in the world. The problem is achieving that without the indiscriminate killing of others, which is both morally indefensible, and liable to generate further Nazis down the line.

:fixed:
Strawman. They're the ones who generated the Real goddamn terrorists when they attacked American soil to start the process of bringing about the Ummah. And we don't indiscriminately slaughter noncombatants as much as pay them to get out of the way, inshallah.

If ISIS is to be actually defeated, I can see no substitute for boots on ground in their territory. The big question is where does the world get those boots.
If ISIS were to execute a Chinese citizen, we might get somewhere. A PLA division or 2 might just get the job done...

But then, of course, they might just decide to stay...

No shortage of volunteers here. Osama called it right every step so far. And quite British of you to consider farming out your dirty work to the Chinese. It must be tea time down there.

[piscator]

By Iraqis who mostly agree with them?

Iraqis are not Brits, mate. Their loyalties are to their tribes and their particular reading of Islam, or the whip - not to their nations. They'll fold.

That is an over-generalisation. Iraq is made up of a wide range of peoples, and some are quite ferocious, and hate ISIS. Yes, some Iraqis will fold. But there are many that will fight like scalded cats.

OK then. Why haven't they already had much effect?

[Blind groper]

They have. The expansion of ISIS into Iraq has been halted, and some territory regained. You did not expect it all overnight, did you?

[piscator]

They have. The expansion of ISIS into Iraq has been halted, and some territory regained. You did not expect it all overnight, did you?

No, given your reliance on the fine fighting qualities of the Iraqis, I expected it without US special operators guiding US JDAMS dropped from US planes with US lasers from as far away from any Iraqis as possible, as they might well get shot by mistake or accidental discharge from the not-so-disciplined Arab army they're trying to save.

[Seth]

The IRA was not defeated by killing them all.

Correct. They decided to stop using violence.

Nor will ISIS.

Can't hurt. Every dead jihadi is a jihadi who can't kill someone.

There has to be an alternative.

Yeah, I told you what the alternative is: dhimmitude for the rest of the planet.

Certainly, they must be suppressed, and this is happening currently by arming and training Iraqi and Kurdish troops, and giving air support. This kind of action can be extended and increased. Ultimately, ISIS must be forced to the negotiation table.

The way to do that is to kill them like the cockroaches they are until the last one decides to come to the negotiating table, then kill him too.

They have forever forfeited their right to any respect for their ideology, along with their right to continue consuming oxygen, just like the Nazis.

[pErvinalia]

I agree, but how do you DO that? They were creating terrorists long before Iraq I. Yeah Israel yeah infidels on Holy Land yeah yeah. Their reasons for flying airliners into skyscrapers were a bit thin. So kowtowing to them isn't going to stop them. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, after all. Their religious imperative is to forcibly convert or kill everybody else. You cannot negotiate with that sort of lunacy.

It's not a matter of kowtowing to them or exterminating everyone. That's a false dichotomy. Just don't enact policies that will clearly create more terrorists. Best example of that is Iraq.