Meanwhile, back in Kiev....

[mistermack]

Well, sure, that's been on for month s that insurrectionists played Occupy Maidan... but when things turned to an actual firefight, the protesters got a lot more casualtis than the riot police... If Yanukovych had been ready, he could have played t'ien an men and sent the army to clean up.

Once the shooting starts, the numbers of casualties is just a reflection of who has the most guns.
The insurrection started the shooting. The police held off for ages.

The police have a duty to shoot, in their own defence, and in defence of the country.
Take part in an armed riot, and you're likely to get shot.
All this talk of martyrs is bollocks. They are criminal thugs.

[klr]

Well, sure, that's been on for month s that insurrectionists played Occupy Maidan... but when things turned to an actual firefight, the protesters got a lot more casualtis than the riot police... If Yanukovych had been ready, he could have played t'ien an men and sent the army to clean up.

China 1989 and Ukraine 2014 are very different times and places. I'm sure he'd like to have sent in the heavy gang, but having the eyes of the world on you tends to restrain most people ... especially if you're in Europe.

Do you have to take a contrarian view on everything like this?

Firstly, this was a popular revolution - not a small cabal operating for their own limited interests. It's not much different to what happened in several countries during the Arab Spring.

Even if it were "just a bunch of bandits", Russia had no right to interfere unless there was a desperate risk to the populace. No-one really believes that to the be case. It's territorial grab with no legal basis. If Crimeans want to join Russia, there are legal and democratic avenues for doing that. I have no horse in that race - it's their business.

There's more than a whiff of the Sudetenland about this - or Abkhazia/South Ossetia,

Popular revolution my ass.
The country has regular elections. That's how governments are chosen.
Here in the UK, if we disagree with the current government, we don't have ''popular revolutions'' with guns and burning tyres and grenades. If we did, the response would be FAR more violent than what happened in the Ukraine.
The fact that the other side didn't fight, doesn't make it ''popular''. Most people don't want a fight.

The Crimeans had a ''popular'' revolution of their own. Since that's ok, what's the problem?
Russia has a legal right to be there in the Crimea. And the legal President of the Ukraine asked them to interfere. They had every legal and moral right.

Bollocks. You don't have "popular revolutions" because you don't need to. Your government never gets anywhere near oppressive or corrupt enough that people feel the need to demonstrate en masse day after day after day. The same is true for most countries. The Russians right to be in the Crimea was strictly delineated according to the terms of treaties between the two countries (very favourable to Russia), which Russia has grossly violated. Leasing some naval bases and other facilities does not give you the right to take over an entire region. Compare this action with (say) the British agreeing to leave the Irish "treaty ports" in 1938. They didn't want to leave, but ultimately they agreed to the Irish requests, and did so without causing any trouble on the way.

There's no indication - even from the Russians - that there was a formal request made by Yanukovych, on "behalf" of the Crimeans. He himself claimed the exact opposite just a few days ago. Whether true or not, that's what he wants people to believe. Such a request would in any event not make any sense or have any credibility, since the large pro-Russian Crimea wasn't the problem. As I've said, there was no obvious danger to Crimean Russians as a result of the fall of government. Some Russian Crimeans wishing for the Russians to invade does not make things legitimate. Nor does such an intervention in any way improve Yanukovych's prospects of being restored to power in Kiev, which is probably why he was at pains to distance himself from it. Quite the opposite in fact. By forcibly splitting off the most pro-Russian part of Ukraine, Moscow has just ensured that the rest of the country will become on the whole just more pro-Western and more anti-Russian.

This is really about Putin, not about Yanukovych or any Ukrainian, whether in the Crimea or not. The spectre of possibly losing the Russian naval bases in the Crimea must have freaked him out. That and the fact that he just doesn't like to see the populace anywhere doing anything against his wishes.

[Audley Strange]

One thing is for sure, if the fighting starts poor Turkey is going to find itself inundated by refugees across another one of it's borders.

[mistermack]

The Crimea did have it's own ''popular revolution''.
They took power, and installed their own government, just like they did in Kiev.

Once they had done that, they DID need protection from the Russians. And it was perfectly legit for the Russians to give it. With bandits in charge in Kiev, who violently seized power.
They had every right to assume that their people in the Crimea, who had just seized power in exactly the same way, would face force from Kiev. Of course they would.

But what's been really going on in the last six months, was a tug of war.
One side decided to cheat, and have got their legs slapped.

Split the place. I said it days before this happened. It might still happen.

[pErvinalia]

Last I checked we did not encourage a coup, Yanukovych just decided to flee before things got too ugly for him and we decided to act as if the folk that took advantage of the void were legitimate since they are pro Europe in the first place.

You didn't see any burning barricades, then? Or the hand grenade thrown at the police? Or the police under gunfire?

The normal way to get into power is via the next election.
The US and Europe were in their ear, telling them to go for it, and they would be behind them.

There's leaked tapes with high level US diplomats (the ambassadors to the EU and Ukraine, I think) talking about who they want in power and who they want sidelined. It's not exactly a coup (just on that evidence alone), but it is high level interference.

From what I can understand, the regular protesters all went home once the violence began. There was an election due next year (I think). That's the proper process to get the opposition in government. Not a violent shitfest. Violent shitfests should be saved for actual revolution.

I smell a rat.

[Seth]

Popular revolution my ass.
The country has regular elections. That's how governments are chosen.
Here in the UK, if we disagree with the current government, we don't have ''popular revolutions'' with guns and burning tyres and grenades.

I bet you would if the Prime Minister decided to turn the reins of government over to the Iranians and create a Muslim theocracy by fiat.

That's exactly what the prime minister did to Ukraine. He was a puppet of Putin and a lapdog who went against the popular desire to align with the EU and he sold out to Putin. The people of Ukraine didn't like that because they have a very good reason not to want to align with, much less trust Putin or Russia. Go look up "holomodor."

If we did, the response would be FAR more violent than what happened in the Ukraine.

The people of Ukraine used that degree of force needed to remove Putin's Puppet from office. He in fact ABANDONED his office and fled to Russia when the Ukraine Parliament began proceedings to impeach, arrest and try him for sending the police to kill protesters. He lost his title when he left the premises.

I'm amazed and gratified that there has NOT been more bloodshed in Ukraine so far. I'm very proud that Putin's invasion of Crimea didn't kick off WWIII, which was very, very likely.

The mistake Ukraine made was in believing that the US, the UK or anybody else would protect it's borders with Russia against Russian incursion if they would just give up their nukes. Bad plan. They should have kept the nukes and threatened to dump one on Putin's 50 billion dollar Sochi installation if they set foot in Crimea.

The fact that the other side didn't fight, doesn't make it ''popular''. Most people don't want a fight.

The Crimeans had a ''popular'' revolution of their own. Since that's ok, what's the problem?
Russia has a legal right to be there in the Crimea. And the legal President of the Ukraine asked them to interfere. They had every legal and moral right.

No, Russia has a legal right to occupy the navy bases, and only the navy bases, leased to it by Ukraine. Russia gave up Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. And the "legal President" of Ukraine lost that title when he abandoned his office in Kiev and fled to Russia like the good little Putin Puppet he was.

[Warren Dew]

Do you have to take a contrarian view on everything like this?

Firstly, this was a popular revolution - not a small cabal operating for their own limited interests. It's not much different to what happened in several countries during the Arab Spring.

Even if it were "just a bunch of bandits", Russia had no right to interfere unless there was a desperate risk to the populace. No-one really believes that to the be case. It's territorial grab with no legal basis. If Crimeans want to join Russia, there are legal and democratic avenues for doing that. I have no horse in that race - it's their business.

There's more than a whiff of the Sudetenland about this - or Abkhazia/South Ossetia,

Popular revolution my ass.

Indeed. It was the duly elected parliament of the Ukraine that threw Yanukovich out - by a unanimous vote, no less - not a revolution.

Here in the UK, if we disagree with the current government, we don't have ''popular revolutions'' with guns and burning tyres and grenades. If we did, the response would be FAR more violent than what happened in the Ukraine.

Funny, I don't remember your killing 70 people in 2011, despite the burning buildings.

[mistermack]

Indeed. It was the duly elected parliament of the Ukraine that threw Yanukovich out - by a unanimous vote, no less - not a revolution.

Yeh right. Except that he was already gone.
And many were in fear of their lives. And it was something they had no legal right to do.
Apart from that, spot on !

Funny, I don't remember your killing 70 people in 2011, despite the burning buildings.

Funny, I don't remember any police being murdered, either. Or anyone trying to overthrow the government. Perhaps the situation was different in some way?

[MrJonno]

Democracy doesn't work in any country where people in it have little in common. You have two peoples in Ukraine that don't consider themselves to be citizens of the same country.

It's the reason we have powersharing in Northern Ireland not democracy the 60% protestants, 40% catholics don't even recognise each other as fellow citizens (or fellow human beings half the time)

[Svartalf]

Actuyally 3 peoples, Ukrainian, Russians and Tatars, Others nationalities exist but are in too small numbers.

[mistermack]

Democracy doesn't work in any country where people in it have little in common. You have two peoples in Ukraine that don't consider themselves to be citizens of the same country.

It's the reason we have powersharing in Northern Ireland not democracy the 60% protestants, 40% catholics don't even recognise each other as fellow citizens (or fellow human beings half the time)

That's not what I heard.
There isn't the hate or history of oppression in the Ukraine that there is in NI.
Not even close.

I've seen people saying that their father is on one side of the divide, and they the other.
You wouldn't get that in NI.

[rainbow]

Chicken, Kiev!

I think they are stuffed.

[Svartalf]

WTF, The EU found, Where???, 15 billion dollar to go help the Ukraine, since it won't get that sum from Russia now that Yanukovych is gone and Putin is hostile.

[MrJonno]

Democracy doesn't work in any country where people in it have little in common. You have two peoples in Ukraine that don't consider themselves to be citizens of the same country.

It's the reason we have powersharing in Northern Ireland not democracy the 60% protestants, 40% catholics don't even recognise each other as fellow citizens (or fellow human beings half the time)

That's not what I heard.
There isn't the hate or history of oppression in the Ukraine that there is in NI.
Not even close.

I've seen people saying that their father is on one side of the divide, and they the other.
You wouldn't get that in NI.

The history hatred between Ukraine and Russia is in an league of its own, we got genocide from Russia, we've got half of Ukraine joining the Nazi's for their own genocide (Jews= Communist Russia in genocide speak)

The Prot/Catholic dispute is just a little tiff compared to that

[mistermack]

The history hatred between Ukraine and Russia is in an league of its own, we got genocide from Russia, we've got half of Ukraine joining the Nazi's for their own genocide (Jews= Communist Russia in genocide speak)

The Prot/Catholic dispute is just a little tiff compared to that

So you say. But I see no sign of that when Ukrainians are interviewed on tv. None whatsoever.