Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

[Robert_S]

Palestinians were forced from their homes in order to create Israel.

So, around the time Isreal was founded and before the fist Arab attack was when the majority of the Palestinians were ejected from it?

[Blind groper]

The state of Israel was established in 1948, and the first war with Arabs came after that. The eviction of Palestinians was not all in one go, and continued after 1948, so there was overlap.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Xamonas
I have said, repeatedly, that murders on both sides are wrong.

But you have never said that they are equally wrong. You repeatedly partially justify murders of Jews by the Palestinians, calling them "understandable" and painting the Palestinians always the victims and the Jews as the perpetual aggressors, yet condemn out of hand similar atrocities by the Jews against the Palestinians.

You just seem to ignore the fact that both sides feel equally justified in their actions due to the recent actions of the other side.

But this is a case of the school yard bully (Israel) who is 2 years older and 50 pounds heavier than his victim (Palestine) with powerful friends (America) trying to justify pounding his victim into the dirt because said victim tried to hit back.
Trying to say the wrong on both sides is equal is just ludicrous.

And here is yet another case in point to confirm my comments above.

Let me add a little perspective here:

Nobody on either side of the "dispute" (a tame euphemism for mutual slaughter if ever I heard one!) is thinking about the creation of Israel in the 40s - or any other historical events. They have far more recent atrocities to guide their trigger-fingers!

The Israelis are incensed by random missile attacks and suicide bus-bombs against civilians. The Palestinians are equally furious about the shelling of the Gaza strip, continued land-grabbing and the West-bank barrier. These are the issues that drive recent atrocities - the history is mere backdrop - and both sides are culpable of perpetuating it.

[Blind groper]

But you have never said that they are equally wrong.

For the simple reason that they are not. Murder is wrong, of course. But what is more wrong? One murder or a dozen murders? Israel has killed far more.

Nor can you ignore history. The whole sorry affair began with a nasty period in history.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

But you have never said that they are equally wrong.

For the simple reason that they are not. Murder is wrong, of course. But what is more wrong? One murder or a dozen murders? Israel has killed far more.

Nor can you ignore history. The whole sorry affair began with a nasty period in history.

"All animals are equal; but some are more equal than others."

And with that I will concede that I have no chance of penetrating your stout fortifications of "But they started it!"

From what I can see, you are so caught up in whose fault it is that you have never stopped to think about how to actually end it. Obviously, the Jooz are WRONG so they must be PUNISHED and then everything will be alright!

I see no future in this conversation. I will bow out. Enjoy your simplified worldview. It must make things so easy for you when faced with those difficulty questions. Sadly, it is completely fucking useless when it comes to any kind of answer!

Good day to you, Sir.

[Hermit]

But this is a case of the school yard bully (Israel) who is 2 years older and 50 pounds heavier than his victim (Palestine) with powerful friends (America) trying to justify pounding his victim into the dirt because said victim tried to hit back.
Trying to say the wrong on both sides is equal is just ludicrous.

There you go moralising again, and that description is unfair anyway. It relies on the broader context. I suggest that Israel can only be described as a bully by ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are a tiny part of the broader Arab-Israeli conflict. Once you contextualise it that way, the bully seems to be on the other side. Look at the map. The green area demarcates countries that are members of the Arab League. The dark green highlights countries that have been at war with Israel. I cannot see an independent Palestinian nation remaining content to peaceably exist. It will join the forces that have repeatedly expressed their intention to push the Israelis into the sea and wipe their country off the map. Those are not empty words. There have been five significant Arab-Israeli wars between 1945 and 1995, causing 74,000 military and 18,000 civilian deaths. Historically, it's the Israelis that had to fight with their backs to the wall (or seashore, as it were).

As to requiring Israel to spend that money on American products, that isn't really relevant to the discussion.

Actually, it very much is so in the context I was using it. If you read it in conjunction with the conditions placed on the aid given to the Palestinians, you should see that I meant to say the conditions attached to Israeli aid were in no way equivalent. And that's on top of the fundamental difference between the two, one being for civil, the other for military purposes.

[Blind groper]

Obviously, the Jooz are WRONG so they must be PUNISHED and then everything will be alright!

Sadly, another example of not reading what I have said.

I have not asked for anyone to be punished. My suggestion, worded earlier, for a solution, is an independent sovereign, Palestinian nation, composed of the current Palestinian areas, plus the so-called "new territories" that Israel gained by military conquest.

[Blind groper]

I cannot see an independent Palestinian nation remaining content to peaceably exist. It will join the forces that have repeatedly expressed their intention to push the Israelis into the sea and wipe their country off the map.

This is pure speculation.
Egypt for one, would not join such a mission. I doubt that Saudi Arabia would, either. Or Jordan.

These are nations that are trying to fit in with the rest of the world, and they know of the harm that attacking Israel would do.

You are correct inasmuchas Palestine will not rapidly forget the harm Israel did them. But they are not strong enough to pose a threat to Israel.

[Hermit]

Look at the history, Blind groper. Five wars with members of the Arab League in 50 years. Israel is surrounded by nations that are best described as a mix of Islamic theocracies. The "Arab Spring" has done nothing to change that. Don't expect them to act rationally. There will be more wars. Israel knows it, and everybody else who looks at the situation dispassionately does as well. That is why it will not have yet another Islamic-Arab nation created at its doorstep.

[Warren Dew]

Xamonas
I have said, repeatedly, that murders on both sides are wrong.

But you have never said that they are equally wrong.

Each murder is equally wrong. That makes Israel far more culpable, since it has killed so many more people.

I cannot see an independent Palestinian nation remaining content to peaceably exist. It will join the forces that have repeatedly expressed their intention to push the Israelis into the sea and wipe their country off the map. Those are not empty words. There have been five significant Arab-Israeli wars between 1945 and 1995, causing 74,000 military and 18,000 civilian deaths. Historically, it's the Israelis that had to fight with their backs to the wall (or seashore, as it were).

A better solution would be for Israel to annex the west bank, and make all the current inhabitants of the west bank full Israeli citizens.

[Blind groper]

Look at the history, Blind groper. Five wars with members of the Arab League in 50 years.

The last such war ended in 1973. That is 39 years. Quite a good record of peace with its Arab neighbours. The only 'wars' it has fought recently are with the Palestinians. That is a legacy that will take time to pass, but the Palestinians will not, any time in the foreseeable future, be strong enough to pose a serious threat.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Xamonas
I have said, repeatedly, that murders on both sides are wrong.

But you have never said that they are equally wrong.

Each murder is equally wrong. That makes Israel far more culpable, since it has killed so many more people.

More Germans died than British in WWII - so was Britain wronger?


It's not a numbers game. Every murder in response to another murder will lead to more murders in response to itself. It stands to reason that the side with the best weaponry will kill more victims. Nothing in that makes them "worse" or "more culpable" - simply more "efficient"!

Another way of viewing it would be that the Israelis at least pay lip-service to trying to attack "military targets" (although the reality of their attacks is far more... haphazard! To the Palestinians, ALL jewish Israelis are "legitimate targets". Their tactics (including missiles launched blindly into Jewish settlements and suicide, bus-bombs, which actually tend to kill a disproportionate number of Israeli Arabs!) reflect this.

No settlement imposed on either side will ever work. Both sides need to want to sue for peace and must reach a compromise acceptable to both in order to end the fighting. And no amount of blame will make either of those things happen any quicker!

[Warren Dew]

Xamonas
I have said, repeatedly, that murders on both sides are wrong.

But you have never said that they are equally wrong.

Each murder is equally wrong. That makes Israel far more culpable, since it has killed so many more people.

More Germans died than British in WWII - so was Britain wronger?

While military casualties don't count as murder, most of the Germans were killed by the Soviets, anyway, not by the Brits.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wrong either way.
Moral ascendency, FWIW, belongs to the Palestinians. It was their land. It was stolen off them. And they have been persecuted ever since. Their relatively feeble attempts to fight back represent the victim of a bully who will not give up.

Nice to see you finally own your views. I reject them, however. All murder is evil, no matter your efforts to justify some of it.

Thanks for playing.

Actually, it very much is so in the context I was using it. If you read it in conjunction with the conditions placed on the aid given to the Palestinians, you should see that I meant to say the conditions attached to Israeli aid were in no way equivalent. And that's on top of the fundamental difference between the two, one being for civil, the other for military purposes.

Whether Israel spends that money on American weapons or (say) European weapons, it is still American money which is financing much of their military, is my point. I confess I don't see the importance of the weapons being made in America vs made in (say) France, because no matter where they are built, so long as they are bought with American aid money, the Palestinians will (rightfully, imo) see us as giving favor to Israel rather than maintaining neutrality. And if we are going to give that aid to Israel, it should come with more strings, I think, and of primacy among those strings must be no more settlements. Period, end of story.

That military aid is given to Israel and not the PNA is indeed asymmetric, but I also think it's at least somewhat understandable, insofar as the PNA has a demonstrated lack of control over Hamas whereas the IDF are some of the most highly disciplined soldiers in the world.

This is not to excuse our aiding the Israelis militarily, aid which I believe should be ended as harmful to America's medium- and long-term strategic interests. I'd like to see all American foreign aid ended with the exception of emergency assistance, but that's probably a different thread.

[Blind groper]

All murder is evil, no matter your efforts to justify some of it.

I agree that all murder is evil. I do not justify Palestinian attack on Israel. But I understand them. Do you see the difference?