When a terrorist dies, is it OK to gloat?

[Hermit]

Sorry, I still don't know where you are going with your previous two posts.

In essence, a state that does not respect the rule of law forfeits the moral right to apply the rule of law.

(got there in the end)

Got it at last. Excuse my tardiness, but I am German.

Mind you, I disagree with that. Applying the rule of law should be universal, even in regard to nations or any other organisation that breaks it. The alternative is to lower ourselves to the levels of those whose behaviour we object to, both within the state and in our relations with other states. We'll be complicit in re-establishing the law of the jungle, might makes right and fuck the rights and protections for individuals that have been so hard to come by in the past few centuries. That was precisely my point earlier.

[devogue]

Sorry, I still don't know where you are going with your previous two posts.

In essence, a state that does not respect the rule of law forfeits the moral right to apply the rule of law.

(got there in the end)

Got it at last. Excuse my tardiness, but I am German.

Mind you, I disagree with that. Applying the rule of law should be universal, even in regard to nations or any other organisation that breaks it. The alternative is to lower ourselves to the levels of those whose behaviour we object to, both within the state and in our relations with other states. We'll be complicit in re-establishing the law of the jungle, might makes right and fuck the rights and protections for individuals that have been so hard to come by in the past few centuries. That was precisely my point earlier.

So we are in agreement.

( )

[Seabass]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/bali-bom ... -5ko7.html

I don't recall any gloating in Australia or Indonesia when the Bali bombers were executed.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Really? Not one single, solitary Aussie college kid raised a beer in celebration when the bombers were executed? Well, if that's true, I guess Australians are superior to Americans. Or maybe UBL had a bit more notoriety than the Bali Bombers...

It's not a contest, just an observation about the difference in reactions.

The Bali bombing was big news and had a profound effect on Australians. I think the difference in response to the deaths of those responsible for the Bali bombing and the death of OBL is interesting to analyse, including the circumstances of each.

The responses were different because the circumstances were different.

Osama was the head of the largest terrorist organization on the planet, that executed the deadliest terrorist attack in history. That attack became the catalyst for two controversial wars in the middle east that have destroyed hundreds of thousand of lives, and helped wreck our economy.

Imam Samudra, Amrozi Nurhasyim, and Huda bin Abdul Haq, horrible and wretched as they may be, are not Osama Bin Laden. They do not have the name recognition, the notoriety, the infamy, that Bin Laden has. There is no equivalence here.



On the morning of 9/11 I watched two passenger airliners slam into two of the tallest skyscrapers in the world, causing them to collapse in a colossal heap of burning rubble. I watched human beings jumping out of the tops of these buildings to escape the heat of the fires.

The Bali Bombing was, well, it was a bomb. Don't get me wrong--I don't meant to trivialize the bombing--but the two attacks are not equivalent. Many countries, including the U.S. have been bombed by terrorists in the past, but 9/11 was different. This was something new, something really terrifying. 9/11 was on a whole new level. It was just fuckin' crazy. Something like that sears itself onto your brain and you can never forget the horror of seeing those airliners, full of passengers, slamming into those buildings and bringing them down. Again, not to trivialize the Bali Bombing, but the two are not equivalent.



Lastly, the Bali Bombers had already been in custody for some time before they were executed. Osama, however, had been in hiding for years. Then suddenly, out of nowhere, we hear he's been killed by Navy Seals. It was a bit of a shock to the system. We didn't have time to process it and reflect. No discussion period, no cool off period. Just BANG, dead. And I think some people freaked out and handled it immaturely. Not my style personally, but I think I understand where they're coming from.

[charlou]

The Bali bombing was big news and had a profound effect on Australians.

I neglected to include the other people involved, including the Balinese people.

[charlou]

Julia Gillard defends bin Laden celebrations
From: AAP May 04, 2011 12:47PM


PRIME Minister Julia Gillard has defended the celebrations across the West following the killing of Osama bin Laden, saying the al-Qaeda leader dedicated his life to violence.

"I think for us to welcome news that in a firefight he has been killed ... is the appropriate thing to do," Ms Gillard told reporters in Sydney.

Ms Gillard's comments come after high profile Queen's Counsel Geoffrey Robertson said bin Laden should have been put on trial rather than killed.

Bin Laden was killed by a US special forces team, US President Barack Obama announced at the start of the week.

Geoffrey Robertson for (Australian) PM.

Since Julia Gillard has become PM I've gone right off her. Gormless, patronising (she proves that combination is not an oxymoron) puppet.

I find this one laughable --

But a Muslim group in Australia is calling the celebration “disgusting” saying Americans should be more restrained.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/austra ... isgusting/ A group of fucking MUSLIMS talking about how "restrained" other people should be? That's a laugh. You mean, when it's our victory, we should be "more restrained," and when it's some monstrous act by a Muslim group, they'll just remain silent over the cheers and riotous gloating of Muslims (and make sure we're all reminded that it's just a "small number" of Muslims...) -- The gloating and cheering in the US was only a "small minority" of Americans, and doesn't represent the majority reaction, which was muted, relieved, and happy but reserved. Most people I know aren't of the run out in the street and swill in beer mode on this one.
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world/julia-gill ... z1LZvW3g3U

No word on whether the Muslim group thinks THIS is "disgusting," of course...



Celebrating the death of a mass-murderer....disgusting! Calling for the demise of an entire nation....very reasonable, and in fact the fault of the nation whose demise is called for....

I'm not surprised some Muslims are in agreement about the gloating. Pretty sure they're not the same Muslims depicted in that picture, Coito.

[Pappa]

Got it at last. Excuse my tardiness, but I am German.

It's a slippery slope. First you ask us to excuse your tardiness on account of your Germanness, next you'll be wanting us to excuse you for the holocaust!

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not surprised some Muslims are in agreement about the gloating. Pretty sure they're not the same Muslims depicted in that picture, Coito.

I'm pretty sure the Muslim group quoted in the article would be four-square in favor of the calls for US demise.

Nevertheless, the point is that when we talk about some American drunken college kids jumping around in the street, then that's "disgusting" and an indictment of the United States... when it's Muslims glorying in calls for the deaths of Americans and the actual deaths of Americans, that's when we have to understand that the acts of that few, isolated non-representative group of Muslims is not to be attributed to the whole...

It's the same mantra over and over again. When Europeans and Arab Muslims and Australian Muslims write articles denouncing the "American" glee over bin Laden's death, they don't parse out the differences between those few who were engaged in late night drunken revelry, and those who did not...

[charlou]

Man, I've made a dog's breakfast of the quoting up there ... trying to fix ...

[charlou]

That's better.

[mistermack]

"When a terrorist dies, is it OK to gloat?"
I have to say yes. Because if George Bush got a couple of bullets through the face, I would gloat long and loud. So the same must apply for other terrorists.

[charlou]

I'm not surprised some Muslims are in agreement about the gloating. Pretty sure they're not the same Muslims depicted in that picture, Coito.

I'm pretty sure the Muslim group quoted in the article would be four-square in favor of the calls for US demise.

Nevertheless, the point is that when we talk about some American drunken college kids jumping around in the street, then that's "disgusting" and an indictment of the United States... when it's Muslims glorying in calls for the deaths of Americans and the actual deaths of Americans, that's when we have to understand that the acts of that few, isolated non-representative group of Muslims is not to be attributed to the whole...

It's the same mantra over and over again. When Europeans and Arab Muslims and Australian Muslims write articles denouncing the "American" glee over bin Laden's death, they don't parse out the differences between those few who were engaged in late night drunken revelry, and those who did not...

It's ironic that you don't 'parse out the differences' among Muslims in your complaint here.

[Coito ergo sum]

"When a terrorist dies, is it OK to gloat?"
I have to say yes. Because if George Bush got a couple of bullets through the face, I would gloat long and loud. So the same must apply for other terrorists.

Do you apply that "logic" to Obama, too? He's the one who ordered troops to invade a sovereign nation and kill its people without UN approval or even Congressional authorization? And, then of course, there's Libya - no imminent threat there, but we'll just declare the rebels the lawful government and bomb the fuck out of the government that's actually recognized by the UN....

That's not terrorism?

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not surprised some Muslims are in agreement about the gloating. Pretty sure they're not the same Muslims depicted in that picture, Coito.

I'm pretty sure the Muslim group quoted in the article would be four-square in favor of the calls for US demise.

Nevertheless, the point is that when we talk about some American drunken college kids jumping around in the street, then that's "disgusting" and an indictment of the United States... when it's Muslims glorying in calls for the deaths of Americans and the actual deaths of Americans, that's when we have to understand that the acts of that few, isolated non-representative group of Muslims is not to be attributed to the whole...

It's the same mantra over and over again. When Europeans and Arab Muslims and Australian Muslims write articles denouncing the "American" glee over bin Laden's death, they don't parse out the differences between those few who were engaged in late night drunken revelry, and those who did not...

It's ironic that you don't 'parse out the differences' among Muslims in your complaint here.

I did parse out the differences. I never suggested all Muslims or even most Muslims were any given way. I referred only to that particular Muslim group that made the statement about how American revelry was "disgusting," but has never once made a single comment about Muslim revelry.

[mistermack]

"When a terrorist dies, is it OK to gloat?"
I have to say yes. Because if George Bush got a couple of bullets through the face, I would gloat long and loud. So the same must apply for other terrorists.

Do you apply that "logic" to Obama, too? He's the one who ordered troops to invade a sovereign nation and kill its people without UN approval or even Congressional authorization? And, then of course, there's Libya - no imminent threat there, but we'll just declare the rebels the lawful government and bomb the fuck out of the government that's actually recognized by the UN....

That's not terrorism?

Of course it's terrorism, and I've made it plain that we should not be taking sides.
If the rebels took Tripoli, you would see the real massacre start. Both sides are as bad as each other, we should never have backed anyone.

As far as Obama is concerned, I wouldn't celebrate, because his replacement is sure to be even worse. And that's the only reason. And UN approval or even Congressional authorization really make fuck-all difference to me.
.

[maiforpeace]

Celebrating any death or gloating over it has always seemed wrong to me. As many awful things as Osama may have done or directed to be done, I still can't bring myself to rejoice in the death of a fellow human being.

Osama Bin Laden was someone's son, husband, father...regardless of his crime against humanity, I too feel it is wrong to rejoice in someone's death and the suffering of their loved ones. How would I feel if someone rejoiced in the death of someone I love?

Who gives a fuck about him, he's dead. It's those that are left behind that are suffering now.

It's totally to be expected that some people gloat, even on this forum. Personally, I've found much of the reaction rather disturbing and have found myself looking at Americans in a rather negative light.

Humans do some awful things, and gloating over the death of an enemy is one of them. This particular event just happens to be happening in America. It's easy to criticize, but it's not as easy to make really hard choices that have serious consequences.