Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Coito ergo sum]

The disturbing thing about this is that the people now running the belated "investigation" are the same people who have a vested interest in Zimmerman not being charged, and certainly not convicted.

That isn't correct at all. It is being investigated by a special prosecutor and the FBI, both of which are tasked with making sure that if there is a way to prosecute Zimmerman, they're to find it. The FBI answers to the FBI director who answers to the President of the US, ultimately, and we know what the President's position on this is.

Who do you claim is running the investigation?

A conviction would make the state, and the local police, look completely incompetent. And even charges brought would make them look bad. So what would a police department do?

It was local police who answered the call that night. The State police have no dog in that hunt. And, the FBI certainly has no dog in that hunt. And, if the special prosecutor built a successful case, he would be lauded as having done a fine job. The special prosecutor doesn't get a bonus for not winning cases.

Firstly, the police chief who has most to hide stepped down temporarily. He's apparently not resigned, he's just taking temporary leave. The State attorney who made the original decision has been replaced in the case. All very proper. BUT :

The signs are that they are going to bury it. The state attorney now says that no grand jury will decide on charges. It will be her office that has the final say. If this fuss dies down enough, she won't charge him.

But if she HAS to charge him, the chances are they will present a thoroughly weak prosecution case, which will get thrown out. That's the standard procedure for getting the police off the hook, and it's virtually never questioned, and impossible to prove.

Maybe where you are. But, that makes no sense at all under the US system. The prosecution doesn't get bonuses for losing cases, and they have no problem prosecuting cops either. Moreover, a conviction would not put any police officers "on the hook." Just because they didn't arrest someone on the spot doesn't mean they did something wrong, and at worst they'd receive training on the implementation of the law if it was found that they misinterpreted it in light of the facts presented.

Cops making judgment calls as to when to arrest is part of their job. Investigating suspects while they're free happens all the time.

So even though Zimmerman wouldn't stand a chance in a proper trial, the chances are he either won't stand trial, or will get acquitted super quick.

He wouldn't stand a chance? You seem to think everyone in Florida are racist cop-lovers, but you think the jury would be sure to convict Zimmerman?

[Coito ergo sum]

More news -- http://www.clickorlando.com/news/State- ... index.html

[mistermack]

On March 22, 2012, Florida Governor Rick Scott announced that Angela Corey would be the newly assigned State Attorney investigating the case, replacing Wolfinger.[53] Corey has stated that her office, rather than a grand jury, will decide whether to press charges against Zimmerman.

There is a factor that might affect who handles the case though.
On the Zimmerman 911 tape, he mutters something which many people identify as "fucking coons" as he's following Martin.
That if true would make it a racially motivated killing, and bring it under possible federal jurisdiction.
Here is the audio, repeated for easier identification : http://kevinmcalpine1.pwp.blueyonder.co ... 0coons.mp3

It's hard to think what else it could have been. I wonder what he's told the police?

[FBM]

I can derive "these fucking coons" from that, but then again, I was told what to hear in advance. The audio quality is such that, especially derived of full context, it could have been any of a variety of utterances. Need more context to help the ear. Isle of View or "I love you"?

[amused]

But back to my real question: What precludes the possibility that both Martin and Zimmerman misbehaved on the night in question?

Nothing precludes that at all, and is quite likely the real situation. But someone is unnecessarily dead now because of the actions of a self-appointed vigilante. That's wrong.

[FBM]

But back to my real question: What precludes the possibility that both Martin and Zimmerman misbehaved on the night in question?

Nothing precludes that at all, and is quite likely the real situation. But someone is unnecessarily dead now because of the actions of a self-appointed vigilante. That's wrong.

This is not a logical statement, strictly speaking. To be fair to every one involved and logical possibility, it should read more along the lines that someone is unnecessarily dead because of the actions of a self-appointed vigilante, or the actions of a wanna-be gangsta, or the unfortunate co-occurance of both. Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

[amused]

But back to my real question: What precludes the possibility that both Martin and Zimmerman misbehaved on the night in question?

Nothing precludes that at all, and is quite likely the real situation. But someone is unnecessarily dead now because of the actions of a self-appointed vigilante. That's wrong.

This is not a logical statement, strictly speaking. To be fair to every one involved and logical possibility, it should read more along the lines that someone is unnecessarily dead because of the actions of a self-appointed vigilante, or the actions of a wanna-be gangsta, or the unfortunate co-occurance of both. Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

Well, strictly speaking, you're right. But the question posed in the title of the thread is whether the stand your ground law is (partially?) to blame. I say yes, the stand your ground law in combination with concealed carry is setting up the situation where a self-appointed vigilante feels empowered to fabricate an unnecessary confrontation in order to self-justify the use of deadly force. That's wrong and corrosive to civilized society.

[kiki5711]

Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

com'n FBM, really?????

there's endless possibilities if you want to look at it that way....maybe even it's possible an alien came down and they got mixed up and confused and zimmerman shot the alien but it turned out later that it was Martin.

Give me a break!

how about just starting from fact one, and so on.....not making up possiblities.

[FBM]

Again, you're assuming that Martin wasn't actually casing the place and didn't suddenly decide to do a 180 and approach Zimmerman. He had been caught with stolen items before, but nothing significant had been done about it. Perhaps he felt emboldened by this? Perhaps the confrontation was reasonable, after all. Perhaps Zimmerman was really returning to his truck when Martin approached him aggressively. Do you know for dead sure? I don't. My main point throughout all this is that most people are fabricating versions of what really happened and dogmatically asserting that they are true, despite the fact that nobody who wasn't there knows what really happened. This is foolish, at best, and the consequences could shame us all.

[FBM]

Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

com'n FBM, really?????

there's endless possibilities if you want to look at it that way....maybe even it's possible an alien came down and they got mixed up and confused and zimmerman shot the alien but it turned out later that it was Martin.

Give me a break!

how about just starting from fact one, and so on.....not making up possiblities.

That's precisely my point. Stop making up possibilities and dogmatically asserting that they are true when you weren't there and don't really know.

[Coito ergo sum]

Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

com'n FBM, really?????

there's endless possibilities if you want to look at it that way....maybe even it's possible an alien came down and they got mixed up and confused and zimmerman shot the alien but it turned out later that it was Martin.

Give me a break!

how about just starting from fact one, and so on.....not making up possiblities.

I think you need to be open to the possibility that you may not be right here. After all, by your argument as to the complete clarity of what went on here, and the complete surety of Zimmerman's guilt, everyone else involved, including the now special prosecutor and FBI team investigating the matter, must have murkier evidence than you. After all, they can see as much as you have seen, and much more, and yet, they haven't arrested Zimmerman.

Are they all racists, and looking to save the Latino "gun nut" who shot an innocent youth in cold blood?

[kiki5711]

Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

com'n FBM, really?????

there's endless possibilities if you want to look at it that way....maybe even it's possible an alien came down and they got mixed up and confused and zimmerman shot the alien but it turned out later that it was Martin.

Give me a break!

how about just starting from fact one, and so on.....not making up possiblities.

That's precisely my point. Stop making up possibilities and dogmatically asserting that they are true when you weren't there and don't really know.

I was talking from what I heard on the tapes. NOT what I read in any paper.

Martin was walking to his girlfriend's house and talking to her on the phone.

Zimmerman was out and about dutifully patrolling the area.

Zimmerman happens to see a tall guy with a hoodie, keeps following him, calls the dispatcher say "this guy looks suspicious, he's probably up to no good", zimmerman says he thinks he's black,...according to the tape. Then zimmerman says "these assholes always get away with it"

Zimmerman gets asked "are you still following him"? he says "yes" then he says "now he's walking towards me, his hand is in his pocket".

Zimmerman is told "we don't need you to do that, stop following him". The police will meet you at such and such. Zimmerman say "K".
=
=this time in the middle is what's being disputed.......-
=
Not much later maybe less than minute the neighbors hear screeming for help, following by a shot. One neighbor looks out the window and sees someone laying on the ground, saying I think he's dead.

If the girlfriend heard the shot, then she also heard what happened right before that and she'll be a key witness.

Everyone else can speculate till the shit smells good.

My theory is that once Martin saw he was being followed by this beedy eyed big guy, he got nervous and maybe scared, turned around and said "why are you following me?"

At this point Zimmerman thinks the hand in the pocket means, gun, knife or something threatening and goes into a rage and attacks Martin, hence the cries for help by Martin, Zimmerman gets all Rambo and shoots.

[Coito ergo sum]

Your statement ignores the other possibilities and convicts Zimmerman sans compelling evidence.

com'n FBM, really?????

there's endless possibilities if you want to look at it that way....maybe even it's possible an alien came down and they got mixed up and confused and zimmerman shot the alien but it turned out later that it was Martin.

Give me a break!

how about just starting from fact one, and so on.....not making up possiblities.

That's precisely my point. Stop making up possibilities and dogmatically asserting that they are true when you weren't there and don't really know.

I was talking from what I heard on the tapes. NOT what I read in any paper.

O.k.

Martin was walking to his girlfriend's house and talking to her on the phone.

You can hear on the tape that he was walking to his girlfriend's house and talking on the phone? Really?

Odd -- he was supposedly going to his father's fiance's house, I heard.

Zimmerman was out and about dutifully patrolling the area.

That isn't apparent from the tape either. Although, he was obviously out and about, as was Martin. I presume you'd agree that Zimmerman has as much a right to walk around his neighborhood as Martin does, yes?

Zimmerman happens to see a tall guy with a hoodie, keeps following him, calls the dispatcher say "this guy looks suspicious, he's probably up to no good",

Yes, and he provides more detail with words to the effect that Martin is looking around at the houses wandering.

zimmerman says he thinks he's black,...according to the tape. Then zimmerman says "these assholes always get away with it"

Point of clarification: Zimmerman doesn't volunteer Martin's race. The dispatcher asks Zimmerman if Martin is black or white, and Zimmerman answers the question. I think you're thinking of the doctored NBC 911 audio, where they cut out bits to make it look like Zimmerman just volunteered that the kid was black.

Zimmerman gets asked "are you still following him"? he says "yes" then he says "now he's walking towards me, his hand is in his pocket".

Zimmerman is told "we don't need you to do that, stop following him". The police will meet you at such and such. Zimmerman say "K".
=
=this time in the middle is what's being disputed.......-
=
Not much later maybe less than minute the neighbors hear screeming for help, following by a shot. One neighbor looks out the window and sees someone laying on the ground, saying I think he's dead.

A lot of this is not apparent from the tape. Witnesses also say that they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman punching Zimmerman, which is consistent with Zimmerman's story.

If the girlfriend heard the shot, then she also heard what happened right before that and she'll be a key witness.

Everyone else can speculate till the shit smells good.

I presume other witnesses besides Martin's girlfriend on the phone may well have something to say about it, including anyone who saw Martin punching Zimmerman.

My theory is that once Martin saw he was being followed by this beedy eyed big guy, he got nervous and maybe scared, turned around and said "why are you following me?"

Nice theory. It may be right, and it may not be.

At this point Zimmerman thinks the hand in the pocket means, gun, knife or something threatening and goes into a rage and attacks Martin, hence the cries for help by Martin, Zimmerman gets all Rambo and shoots.

How do you explain that Zimmerman was seen on his back with Marton on top punching him?

Anyway - you start off by saying your view comes only from the audio, but then you proceed to describe mostly stuff that isn't on the audio.

[Seth]

I'm really having a hard time understanding some of the points being made in this thread (never mind the reality of actual event).

OK. I'm living in a different place with different laws, BUT... if I went on a visit to Florida, which does have freer gun laws and ALSO has that stand-your-ground law, and was walking home from a store one night in a "gated" community, how would this play out?

I'm walking and someone starts following me (uncontested). If I honestly think he/she means me harm, am I not allowed to "stand my ground" and fight them with whatever self-defence means I have at hand (and if I only have a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea, that would be hitting and punching and scratching, etc.)?

I've seen quite a few posts (in other gun threads, on various boards) by American people who have mocked those of us in "gun control" countries as being meek sheep for the slaughter, but I know that under certain circumstances (being confronted in the night by a stranger, for example), I'd be defending myself by whatever means necessary.

And for heaven's sake, this "size" discussion! I'm a middle-aged woman who's five-foot-five and about 125-130 pounds, and I don't consider myself either big or small - just average. The dead boy was six-foot-two (three?) and 140 pounds? I do understand that a male teenager would be have the benefit of youthful strength and agility and whatnot, but that's still a tall, slender (even skinny) person by any reasonable standard, no?

If indeed Zimmerman was attacked as he claims, it's a shame he didn't defend himself (if that's what happened) in a non-lethal manner. Instead of a gun, for instance, could not mace have done the trick? Gun lovers seem to ignore the fact that there are other ways to defend oneself, other ways which do not leave your opponent dead.

None are so effective as a handgun unfortunately. And if things are as Zimmerman claims, Mace might not have done the trick. Besides, if someone is attacking you in a manner that legally justifies the use of deadly force in self defense, then it's probably a good idea to use deadly force in self defense because lesser measures may get you killed. I have no sympathy whatsoever for any attacker who justifies the use of deadly force in self defense and they deserve exactly what they get.

If you don't want to get shot dead by a victim, don't victimize them. Pretty simple really. And it seems to be advice that thugs are taking in the US, where violent crime is lower than it is in the UK and keeps going down as concealed carry is made lawful in more states all the time.

[Seth]

But it wouldn't be a highly polarized, nationwide story, much less the international one that it has become, would it? I don't see 'black person kills innocent Hispanic person' as a headline story very often, but I'm pretty sure it happens more often than it hits the headlines. If it's particularly gory, maybe 2nd-page, but I doubt most of them get published outside of the local media at all.

You're right, because Martin's ass would be in jail before you can sneeze, done, executed.

Horseshit. Even if Martin was arrested, he'd still get due process and it would take at LEAST ten years of appeals before he was executed, even though he's black. Your understanding of our justice system is grossly deficient I'm afraid.