Extinction Rebellion

[JimC]

Only a political movement has any chance of change. Supporting political parties that want change which is why the farmers are demonstrating. Here the system is in place not like the UK where it one huge mess with people in power that could not care less.

And how do you motivate a political party to develop policies that deal with the climate and ecological emergencies?

Scot has something of a point, in that bringing into power a political party with good climate change policies is, IMO, the only way for real change to occur (leaving aside revolutionary system change, which is highly likely to be violent and chaotic). To do this requires a large increase in the proportion of the population willing to make climate change a major factor in their voting. Once this is clear to politicians, electoral victory will come to candidates or parties who embrace strong policies for climate action.

However, this change in mass attitudes can be powerfully affected by well-organised protest campaigns, as shown by the Vietnam era protests and others before and since. That is why XR (and other groups) can be an important piece of the push for real action.

[Scot Dutchy]

Jim a man of my heart. I only set question marks by the demo's. It does not work and can work against any political movement. Public sympathy is short lived as the farmers today discovered here. The second national demo has ended in a negative with the public and the farmers leaders acknowledged that. Many are saying it was one demo too much.

[JimC]

Right now, the XR message in Britain is probably being overwhelmed by Brexit news...

[Scot Dutchy]

It came at the wrong time. How coincidental (?).

[Brian Peacock]

Only a political movement has any chance of change. Supporting political parties that want change which is why the farmers are demonstrating. Here the system is in place not like the UK where it one huge mess with people in power that could not care less.

And how do you motivate a political party to develop policies that deal with the climate and ecological emergencies?

Scot has something of a point, in that bringing into power a political party with good climate change policies is, IMO, the only way for real change to occur (leaving aside revolutionary system change, which is highly likely to be violent and chaotic). To do this requires a large increase in the proportion of the population willing to make climate change a major factor in their voting. Once this is clear to politicians, electoral victory will come to candidates or parties who embrace strong policies for climate action.

However, this change in mass attitudes can be powerfully affected by well-organised protest campaigns, as shown by the Vietnam era protests and others before and since. That is why XR (and other groups) can be an important piece of the push for real action.

Scot assumes that XR are basically operating on the party model - that they have an ideologically driven desire to govern - and are therefore failing in those terms. And in those terms they are failing - there's no XR MP or local councillors. But XR doesn't exist to govern but to communicate a message. That message is getting through.

At last month's UK Labour Party conference over 100 so-called 'green motions' proposed by delegates from local parties were voted on with around 60 of them being accepted and integrated into a range of policies brought under the heading of a 'Green New Deal' - which is the basis of a plan to ultimately green the economy in favour of social, economic & climate/environmental justice. This massive green shift in Labour's policy priorities is something XR has contributed to by taking our message directly to local political institutions and local elected representatives.

You don't have to be a party to have political influence, nor to contribute to a shift in perspective in the general population.

[Brian Peacock]

Right now, the XR message in Britain is probably being overwhelmed by Brexit news...

Absolutely. I think we could do more to highlight that a no-deal Brexit and the closer regulatory alignment with the US the Brexitarians seem so keen on would mean saying farewell to any UK action on the climate and environmental crisis.

[Brian Peacock]

Jim a man of my heart. I only set question marks by the demo's. It does not work and can work against any political movement. Public sympathy is short lived as the farmers today discovered here. The second national demo has ended in a negative with the public and the farmers leaders acknowledged that. Many are saying it was one demo too much.

People demonstrate when they feel that they don't have a voice - that their interests are not being represented. When we see the bankers and stockbrokers out on the streets we'll know we're making a difference!

[JimC]

Brian Peacock wrote:

...This massive green shift in Labour's policy priorities is something XR has contributed to by taking our message directly to local political institutions and local elected representatives...

That's great, and I hope something of that nature happens here. It reinforces my view that XR cannot "force" governments or systems to change, but that it can act as a catalyst via very visible demonstrations to produce a significant shift in public opinion. This in turn will force established political systems to adopt better policies, or face electoral defeat.

[Brian Peacock]

I agree with you about XR being unable to "force" political or systems change, but also about the political "force" of mounting public disquiet in the face on conspicuous government inaction.

[pErvinalia]

I do wonder whether it is a good idea to disrupt "ordinary" folk. In London commuters cracked the shits and attacked the guy holding up their train. I can't help thinking that we should be targeting fossil fuel interests and the government directly. You don't want the protests to backfire.

[JimC]

I do wonder whether it is a good idea to disrupt "ordinary" folk. In London commuters cracked the shits and attacked the guy holding up their train. I can't help thinking that we should be targeting fossil fuel interests and the government directly. You don't want the protests to backfire.

I have mixed feelings as well. However, in Melbourne at least, they had people whose job it was to go up and down the rows of blocked cars, apologise, give them an idea of how long it would be, explain the cause, and (in some cases) give out cakes. In the end, I have decided that, even given producing a certain number of disgruntled people, in balance it is still the right thing to do.

But I also agree about the targeting of mining interests. In fact, in Melbourne starting on October 28th, there is an international conference (IMARC - International Mining and Resources Conference). A variety of groups, including XR, are planning a blockade. It could get messy, as it is at a fixed venue - no chance to play swarming games, and no doubt a large police presence. I might go, if only to be at the periphery, holding a placard - I'm not ready to be an arrestable...

[rainbow]

But I also agree about the targeting of mining interests. In fact, in Melbourne starting on October 28th, there is an international conference (IMARC - International Mining and Resources Conference). A variety of groups, including XR, are planning a blockade. It could get messy, as it is at a fixed venue - no chance to play swarming games, and no doubt a large police presence. I might go, if only to be at the periphery, holding a placard - I'm not ready to be an arrestable...

For renewables to work, we need mining. The Rare Earths, Lithium, Cobalt, Tantalum, Silicon and Vanadium can't be conjured from nothing. Even the carbon electrodes required for the batteries, and the graphene/graphite needed for structural elements, the insulating materials will need to come from coal, or crude oil.

[pErvinalia]

We've got children to dig those minerals up in Africa.

[rainbow]

We've got children to dig those minerals up in Africa.

Not funny.
I've seen them digging in old dumps for bits of ore with their bare hands.
...but it gets the cobalt that make Li-ion batteries work, so I'm sure they feel they are doing their bit to save the planet.

[JimC]

But I also agree about the targeting of mining interests. In fact, in Melbourne starting on October 28th, there is an international conference (IMARC - International Mining and Resources Conference). A variety of groups, including XR, are planning a blockade. It could get messy, as it is at a fixed venue - no chance to play swarming games, and no doubt a large police presence. I might go, if only to be at the periphery, holding a placard - I'm not ready to be an arrestable...

For renewables to work, we need mining. The Rare Earths, Lithium, Cobalt, Tantalum, Silicon and Vanadium can't be conjured from nothing. Even the carbon electrodes required for the batteries, and the graphene/graphite needed for structural elements, the insulating materials will need to come from coal, or crude oil.

Sure, I'm not suggesting a blanket attack on all mining. Of course, all coal mining company executives need to be terminated with extreme prejudice...