Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Tyrannical]

It's a shame that American Blacks can't use the Trayvon killing as a reason to self-reflect on their behavior and why they are perceived as a threat. Racism is in essence treating Blacks differently, but if they act so different why should they be treated the same? What Blacks should be concentrating on is how they can change their perception of being heavily associated with crime, welfare, and lack of education.

A few things I'd suggest

1) March and protest in your own neighborhoods to protest Black crime.
The vast majority of Black initiated crime is on other Blacks, so aside from the obvious that it would be most effective there, it doesn't run the risk of turning it into race vs race. That also means Blacks need to report crime and be willing to testify. Too often I've heard stories of refusal to testify because of "snitching" rules or fear. Whitey can't wave his magic wand and fix Black crime, Blacks have to be responsible for changing their own behavior.

2) Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

3) Stay in school and work hard toward your education.
Not everyone is blessed with the same level of intelligence, but often that means instead of unable to learn, more effort needs to be applied. The fact that Black educational achievement is the lowest of other racial groups is not news, but at least some part of that is due to Blacks put forth the least amount of effort. Black society must learn to appreciate the scholar instead of just the the musician or sports star.

[kiki5711]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

[mistermack]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

That Robin Hood, he's a bad example too.
The young people of today, eh?

[Tyrannical]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

[Svartalf]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

I hate agreeing with the likes of Tyr and mack, but they have a point... that "music" isn't liked because it's good music, but because it's subversive and encourages/idolizes antisocial behavior mistakenly perceived as merely rebellious against an overly oppressive establishment and the tough guy mothatfookahs who dare live that style.

[Seabass]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

Is death metal a cancer on society?
How about racism and bigotry?

[tattuchu]

I read stated that Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin, and that this was corroborated by witnesses.

you read that in the paper or it's actual witness that came forth and described as such? Link please?

I've read several news articles that stated this. This is Zimmerman's story, I believe, as he told it to the cops, and this is what the police report says I'm assuming (not having read a copy of the police report). This is Zimmerman's version of events. I don't think anyone witnessed the entire altercation and shooting, but a witness did say he saw Zimmerman on the bottom.
Could all be bullshit. Dunno. But this is what I'm reading. Whether or not it's true at all remains to be seen.
Don't have a link. I don't bookmark anything I read, so wherever I read it, it's long gone by now.

[tattuchu]

I still think that the crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed. He has no authority, was told by the authorities not to do that, and instead willfully chose to create a confrontation while armed.

He had the authority that every citizen has to police their community, which happens to be very nearly identical to that of a police officer when a crime is being committed in their presence. He certainly had authority to follow and even approach and question a stranger in his gated private community.

He was under NO obligation to listen to the ADVICE of the dispatcher, who did not "tell" him to do or not do anything and has no authority to do so to begin with, as I explained previously.

And he has a right to be armed, and a right to confront a potential burglar in his private community. He would be stupid to confront a potential burglar WITHOUT being armed.

What happened after that is what's in contention, but nothing he did up to the point where he confronted Martin was in the least bit illegal or improper, and he had ever right to do so.

That you do not understand the law, or don't want to accept what the law is, is not really relevant.

Well hello Mr. Seth, you holiness. You're smarter than anyone I ever met. Listen to your "blabbering" er I mean reasoning for everything that took place that fateful night.

I have no use for Seth but I have to give credit where credit is due. I think he's been unusually restrained in this thread, calm, rational, and reasonable.

[mistermack]

I hate agreeing with the likes of Tyr and mack, but they have a point... that "music" isn't liked because it's good music, but because it's subversive and encourages/idolizes antisocial behavior mistakenly perceived as merely rebellious against an overly oppressive establishment and the tough guy mothatfookahs who dare live that style.

Well, I wasn't agreeing with Tyr. I was making the point that hero-worshipping gangsters is not new.
The kids aping the gangster talk is just the same as me pretending to be Robin Hood as a kid, or the kids before me playing at Al Capone.
And before him it was Francis Drake, or Richard the Lionheart, both gangsters of their time.
And in Roman times, they told tales of Alexander "the great", a vicious murdering bastard in his own time.

That's what kids do. It's normal.

[Tyrannical]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

Is death metal a cancer on society?
How about racism and bigotry?

I don't know much about death metal aside from the fact that it seems nowhere near the social detriment as rap music.
Racism and bigotry are signs of intelligence as it is classical pattern recognition. Tolerance on the other hand is more like a state of forced mental retardation as guilt is used to deceive the brain into denying learning. Little more than brainwashing or mind control as it is an encouraged mental conditioning to accept a false premise.

Certain dog breeds are widely regarded as having behaviors associated with that breed, and being able to recognize these behavioral associations and plan accordingly requires cognitive thinking. Similarly people have learned that Blacks as with other races both behave, think and react differently. People learn that Black behavior is detrimental and incompatible with their preferred society, thus the intelligent solution is to shun Blacks from society due to their behavior. Yet that is criticized as racism and bigotry when instead it should be admired as an application of intelligence.

People seem to gloss over how radically more criminally inclined Blacks are, and this is not a small insignificant increase. If criminality were weight and the average weight was 200 lbs, the average Black would weigh over 1,000 lbs. A sleight increase would be 220 lbs.

[Seabass]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

Is death metal a cancer on society?
How about racism and bigotry?

I don't know much about death metal aside from the fact that it seems nowhere near the social detriment as rap music.
Racism and bigotry are signs of intelligence as it is classical pattern recognition. Tolerance on the other hand is more like a state of forced mental retardation as guilt is used to deceive the brain into denying learning. Little more than brainwashing or mind control as it is an encouraged mental conditioning to accept a false premise.

Certain dog breeds are widely regarded as having behaviors associated with that breed, and being able to recognize these behavioral associations and plan accordingly requires cognitive thinking. Similarly people have learned that Blacks as with other races both behave, think and react differently. People learn that Black behavior is detrimental and incompatible with their preferred society, thus the intelligent solution is to shun Blacks from society due to their behavior. Yet that is criticized as racism and bigotry when instead it should be admired as an application of intelligence.

People seem to gloss over how radically more criminally inclined Blacks are, and this is not a small insignificant increase. If criminality were weight and the average weight was 200 lbs, the average Black would weigh over 1,000 lbs. A sleight increase would be 220 lbs.

Fascinating.

One of my best friends is black. We were roomies for three years during our early twenties. I was a groomsman in his wedding. He never stole anything from me (well, not that I know of anyway, but you never know with these darkies). In fact, when he moved out of our apartment, he gave me his 27" TV. Should I shun him?

Another of my chums is half Ethiopian and half white. This one's confusing, him being a mongrel and all. On the plus side, he's half white and we go waaay back all the way to fifth grade (holy shit, that's like ~25 years!). But on the downside, he's half African, so I'm leaning toward shun. What is your recommendation? Shun or no shun?

Thank you in advance for your sage advice!

[amused]

Uh oh, now I'm confused too. We have a black guy who is an attorney in our skate club. Were we supposed to shun him instead of welcoming him? Can't laugh at his (really smart) jokes? His lovely spouse is part black part hispanic, so you know, sorta dark too, but really beautiful and sharp as a tack. Shun?

[Seth]

I still think that the crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed. He has no authority, was told by the authorities not to do that, and instead willfully chose to create a confrontation while armed.

He had the authority that every citizen has to police their community, which happens to be very nearly identical to that of a police officer when a crime is being committed in their presence. He certainly had authority to follow and even approach and question a stranger in his gated private community.

He was under NO obligation to listen to the ADVICE of the dispatcher, who did not "tell" him to do or not do anything and has no authority to do so to begin with, as I explained previously.

And he has a right to be armed, and a right to confront a potential burglar in his private community. He would be stupid to confront a potential burglar WITHOUT being armed.

What happened after that is what's in contention, but nothing he did up to the point where he confronted Martin was in the least bit illegal or improper, and he had ever right to do so.

That you do not understand the law, or don't want to accept what the law is, is not really relevant.

Well hello Mr. Seth, you holiness. You're smarter than anyone I ever met. Listen to your "blabbering" er I mean reasoning for everything that took place that fateful night.

Well, as it happens, having some 25 years in law enforcement culminating in a detective's gold shield, I'm more of a subject-matter expert on this particular subject than you are, and, I suspect than almost anyone else here.

You may not like the fact that I'm better educated on criminal law and police procedure than you are, but that's just your ego being flayed raw.

Whether Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin is going to turn on very, very small details in the evidence. Hopefully the proper evidence was collected and the triers of fact (the jury) will review all the evidence carefully and come to a reasonable and just conclusion about what exactly happened that day.

I can see that you wish to cast this incident in racial terms, and believe me you're not alone. Al Sharpton and a legion of other conclusion-jumping black activist racists are right there in the boat with you.

I prefer to presume innocence, collect evidence, analyze it, present it to the DA and then to the jury and let the man's peers decide if he was justified in killing Martin. I'm confident that justice will be done in this case if the baying hounds of black racism that seem to assume that no black 17 year old has ever used violence against anyone else can be held at bay so they don't poison the jury pool.

Now, it may be that Zimmerman committed cold-blooded murder, and if so he'll get what he deserves. But fanning the flames of racial hatred by assuming that Zimmerman is automatically guilty because he used deadly force, and that Martin is automatically innocent because he got shot dead, is the game of racists, bigots and hatemongers and I prefer not to play that game.

I'll wait for the jury to decide, and I suggest you do so too.

That being said, the thing that does need to happen is that the police department needs to be carefully investigated to make sure that in cases where someone is murdered or assaulted, it matters not what color the victims or the suspects are and that the police do their job without bias or favoritism and strictly according to the law.

Whatever Zimmerman and Martin did, if the police department screwed up the investigation, heads should roll.

[kiki5711]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

I hate rap. It makes my brain feel like jello. But my point was not about rap, it was about you picking this "genre" of music as if it was the devil himself. I also don't like acid rock, which is mostly played by white guys, but that don't mean I'm going to paint all of them as "skinheads".

Open up your mind.

[kiki5711]

[quote]I can see that you wish to cast this incident in racial terms, and believe me you're not alone. Al Sharpton and a legion of other conclusion-jumping black activist racists are right there in the boat with you.

I prefer to presume innocence, collect evidence, analyze it, present it to the DA and then to the jury and let the man's peers decide if he was justified in killing Martin. I'm confident that justice will be done in this case if the baying hounds of black racism that seem to assume that no black 17 year old has ever used violence against anyone else can be held at bay so they don't poison the jury pool.

Now, it may be that Zimmerman committed cold-blooded murder, and if so he'll get what he deserves. But fanning the flames of racial hatred by assuming that Zimmerman is automatically guilty because he used deadly force, and that Martin is automatically innocent because he got shot dead, is the game of racists, bigots and hatemongers and I prefer not to play that game.

I'll wait for the jury to decide, and I suggest you do so too.

No, I'm not. (to the first sentence). But it is what it is.

As for the rest of the comment in the above quote, I totally agree. However, it didn't even start to be an investigation going into the right direction, hence all the protest.

I don't like Al Sharpton, and he's just an attention whore pretending to want to do justice.