Trump and coal mines

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by rainbow » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:27 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:
Coal sludge is filled with toxins. Each year coal preparation creates waste water containing an estimated 13 tons of mercury, 3236 tons of arsenic, 189 tons of beryllium, 251 tons of cadmium, and 2754 tons of nickel, and 1098 tons of selenium.[48]
So why the fuck aren't the greenies busily searching for ways to extract, reprocess and recycle these valuable minerals instead of whining about it using computers powered by...wait for it...coal.
We are.
You're doing a lousy job of it.
A better job than you are.
...but then you're speaking from blissful ignorance.

Know about this?: http://www.denverpost.com/2010/04/15/de ... reservoir/

A good example of what happens when you take the Libertarian idea of allowing mining with proper regulation.

I guess the people of Denver should just leave their city when the water is contaminated with Uranium?

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:37 am

Seth wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Seth wrote:
Woodbutcher wrote:Sure, Seth.http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Fr ... _pollution
Or is this an unreliable source because it reports things that are not extant in your world. Also, there was that little thing in Chernobyl and Fukushima, among other mishaps...http://www.processindustryforum.com/hot ... rdisasters
Never been a verified case of fracking fluids in drinking water. Period. It's all hyperbolic speculation by anti-fracking greenies whose objective is to prevent the extraction of fossil fuels. They don't give a shit about human health.
We've explained this all to you before. No baselines studies were done before fracking and most fracking mixtures are proprietry secrets. All due to lobbying by the industry.
As I said, there are exactly zero verified incidents of fracking contaminating drinking water anywhere in the US. Your claims are just smoke and mirrors and are meaningless tripe. What you're saying amount so "I know fracking pollutes drinking water
Where did I say fracking pollutes drinking water??
Where this isn't the case, it's because greenies and other sane people have managed to convince governments to adopt rational policies.
No, Luddites have frightened gullible legislators who are pandering to a frightened public scared of nonexistent pollution.
What level of retardation does it take to view the good science of using baseline studies as being "Luddite"? :fp:
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Animavore » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:00 am

"Non-existent pollution". And there, folks, is why there's just no talking to deniers. Just no talking to them at all.

I wouldn't bother, rev. You're talking to a person of a similar level of intellectual dishonesty as a creationist. You could show him the tabletop demonstrations using stuff around the house which show CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the graphs from data, the galaciers, the ice caps, the island nations being swallowed by the sea, the dying corals, the ravaged jungles, the parched regions, the flooded coastlines, the increased extreme weather patterns, every month this year breaking records for that month, every year for the last few years breaking records held by the previous year, the mass extinction, and he'd still say there's nothing to see. He's too wrapped up in his poisonous ideology, and too old to change. Thankfully attendance at the Heartless Institution are full of old. Paradigm shifts happen one funeral at a time, and those guys are on their way out, many of the fat bastards from coronary heart conditions.

That's how sad the state has gotten, my hope for the future is that the past is dies.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:14 am

I limit my responses to him now pointing out his logical fallacies, lies and retarded "thinking". There's no point using facts against him as he is impervious to reality. He does , however, by some really spectacular lack of self awareness, think of himself as a good debater. It's important for him to realise that we can see through his amateur rhetoric.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Animavore » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:57 pm

laklak wrote:If the costs of renewable energy actually is below that for fossil plants then there's no issue. We can drop the subsidies (to ALL energy producers) and the market will take care of it. Funny - capitalism will actually solve the issue, whooda thunk it?
Yeah, sure, if you ignore almost three decades of campaigning and raising awareness and public funding to make the technologies viable, and a campaign of disinformation from vested interests; yeah, it was amorphous "capitalism' which took care of all our problems!

Fuck me this belief is as insidious as any religious one.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:26 pm

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:
Coal sludge is filled with toxins. Each year coal preparation creates waste water containing an estimated 13 tons of mercury, 3236 tons of arsenic, 189 tons of beryllium, 251 tons of cadmium, and 2754 tons of nickel, and 1098 tons of selenium.[48]
So why the fuck aren't the greenies busily searching for ways to extract, reprocess and recycle these valuable minerals instead of whining about it using computers powered by...wait for it...coal.
We are.
You're doing a lousy job of it.
A better job than you are.
...but then you're speaking from blissful ignorance.

Know about this?: http://www.denverpost.com/2010/04/15/de ... reservoir/

A good example of what happens when you take the Libertarian idea of allowing mining with proper regulation.

I guess the people of Denver should just leave their city when the water is contaminated with Uranium?

Not your problem, now is it?
Er, you are lying.
“Our water is safe,” he said, “but it’s a little bit troubling that (uranium) is coming into our reservoir in those concentrations.”
Moreover, you elide the fact that measures are being taken to deal with the tiny amounts that have been detected, or that the mine was dug decades before there were any mining regulations pertaining to long-term remediation.

You also elide the fact that General Atomics, which didn't dig the uranium but now owns the property, is working on a clean-up plan.

Nor do you mention that the EPA was directly responsible for the largest spill of contaminated mine waste in US history quite recently and it's denying liability and nobody in charge has been fired or arrested.

You also mendaciously mischaracterize Libertarianism and its response to pollution from one person's property escaping that property and harming others.

That is an initiation of force and/or fraud I call "exported harm" and in Libertarian philosophy the owner responsible for allowing that pollution to escape, no matter what the reason, be it deliberate, negligent or accidental, is COMPLETELY responsible for cleaning it up and compensating those who have been injured, even if it bankrupts him.

However, one of the problems we face here in the west is that there are tens of thousands of mines that were dug more than a hundred years ago, when it was perfectly legal to do so without any regard to cleanup or remediation, that have been abandoned and that nobody owns (technically the government owns them since they are mostly claims, not patented lands on public property), so there is no one to pay for the cleanup. Under EPA regulations if someone today so much as touches the property (by claiming it, buying it or even doing work on it) they become totally responsible for cleanup. So even when volunteer groups who wish to help mitigate flowing mine waste as much as they can afford todo so want to give of themselves and try to fix the problem and improve water quality, they dare not do so because if they do, EVERYONE in the organization becomes personally and individually liable for the entire cost of cleanup, both civilly and criminally.

So, mines go on spewing toxic waste unchecked because some fuckwit bureaucrats at the EPA made a stupid rule they are unwilling to repeal.

So you can fuck off with your lies.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:33 pm

pErvin wrote:
Seth wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Seth wrote:
Woodbutcher wrote:Sure, Seth.http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Fr ... _pollution
Or is this an unreliable source because it reports things that are not extant in your world. Also, there was that little thing in Chernobyl and Fukushima, among other mishaps...http://www.processindustryforum.com/hot ... rdisasters
Never been a verified case of fracking fluids in drinking water. Period. It's all hyperbolic speculation by anti-fracking greenies whose objective is to prevent the extraction of fossil fuels. They don't give a shit about human health.
We've explained this all to you before. No baselines studies were done before fracking and most fracking mixtures are proprietry secrets. All due to lobbying by the industry.
As I said, there are exactly zero verified incidents of fracking contaminating drinking water anywhere in the US. Your claims are just smoke and mirrors and are meaningless tripe. What you're saying amount so "I know fracking pollutes drinking water
Where did I say fracking pollutes drinking water??
Evasion. You are arguing the anti-fracking case and that case is wholly based on the false proposition that fracking causes groundwater contamination. What you're doing now is trying to goalpost-shift.
Where this isn't the case, it's because greenies and other sane people have managed to convince governments to adopt rational policies.
No, Luddites have frightened gullible legislators who are pandering to a frightened public scared of nonexistent pollution.
What level of retardation does it take to view the good science of using baseline studies as being "Luddite"? :fp:
What level of retardation does it take to fail to understand that "baseline studies" of groundwater sources have been going on for many decades. I did "baseline studies" on my private ranch well every few years by drawing a sample and sending it to a lab, where it was analyzed for contamination, which is how I discovered that an underground fuel-oil tank was leaking, which caused me to remove it and remediate the contaminated soil, at a cost of some $25,000. I did this "baseline study" because the high water table sometimes caused bacteria to get into the well casing, requiring me to sterilize the casing with bleach from time to time. Other people do the same thing, and government agencies test drinking water supplies EVERY FUCKING DAY. Trust me, they would notice if unusual stuff began appearing in their wells after a fracked well was drilled nearby.

Again, there is zero evidence of fracking contaminating drinking water supplies anywhere in the US.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:44 pm

Animavore wrote:"Non-existent pollution". And there, folks, is why there's just no talking to deniers. Just no talking to them at all.

I wouldn't bother, rev. You're talking to a person of a similar level of intellectual dishonesty as a creationist. You could show him the tabletop demonstrations using stuff around the house which show CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the graphs from data, the galaciers, the ice caps, the island nations being swallowed by the sea, the dying corals, the ravaged jungles, the parched regions, the flooded coastlines, the increased extreme weather patterns, every month this year breaking records for that month, every year for the last few years breaking records held by the previous year, the mass extinction, and he'd still say there's nothing to see. He's too wrapped up in his poisonous ideology, and too old to change. Thankfully attendance at the Heartless Institution are full of old. Paradigm shifts happen one funeral at a time, and those guys are on their way out, many of the fat bastards from coronary heart conditions.

That's how sad the state has gotten, my hope for the future is that the past is dies.
Except for the fact that the climate change fraud has been exposed as being the result of felonious data manipulation, as admitted to by the very scientists who did the manipulation.

Climate changes. Always has, always will. It's been MUCH warmer on earth many, many times. Evidence of subtropical plant fossils at the North Pole prove this. The question has never been "is the climate changing," of course it is. The question is "are humans causing climate change" and the answer to that is "can't really tell because none of the true measurements we currently have fall outside of scientifically-determined normal temperature variations throughout the history of the planet.

All of the supposed anthropogenic climate change claims are not based on data, they are based on SPECULATION about the data, usually as a result of climate modeling, which has been shown to be completely and utterly useless in actually predicting anything at all accurately. What the climate worshipers do is ignore the simple fact that the margins of error in every single computer climate model subsume every deviation from "normal" (a specious term to begin with) actually measured with instruments within a year of prediction. In other words, no computer climate model comes anywhere close to predicting future temperature changes, ever, even a single year out, much less five years or a hundred years. All of those predictions are pure, unadulterated bullshit purveyed by a climate fraud conspiracy intended to justify and enhance one-world government and to enrich climate "scientists" who play along.

Worse, there is evidence that the earth is overdue for massive climate cooling as a part of the natural cycle of climate over hundreds of thousands of years, and that if AGW exists it may actually be the only salvation for humanity. You see, we can all survive a much warmer climate, one without ice in the arctic ocean or snow at the ski areas.

We cannot survive as a civilization if mile-thick ice caps cover 70 percent of the landmass.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:46 pm

Animavore wrote: the island nations being swallowed by the sea
I want to focus on this bit of hysterical hyperbole. Show us even one "island nation" that has been "swallowed by the sea" please. Just one.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by JimC » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:05 pm

Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote: the island nations being swallowed by the sea
I want to focus on this bit of hysterical hyperbole. Show us even one "island nation" that has been "swallowed by the sea" please. Just one.
So, you deny that world sea levels are rising, and that some low-lying Pacific nations such as Kiribiti are threatened by this climate change induced rise?

If so, you are breathtakingly ignorant.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:37 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote: the island nations being swallowed by the sea
I want to focus on this bit of hysterical hyperbole. Show us even one "island nation" that has been "swallowed by the sea" please. Just one.
So, you deny that world sea levels are rising, and that some low-lying Pacific nations such as Kiribiti are threatened by this climate change induced rise?

If so, you are breathtakingly ignorant.
As I said, show me even one island nation that has been "swallowed by the sea." You can't.

Pity the poor Indians of the Pacific Northwest and Puget Sound who, 15,000 years ago, lived at a sea level that was some 300 feet lower than it is today who had to move 300 feet uphill over thousands of years due to "climate change." Cry me a river.

If you live on an island that's in danger of being "swallowed by the sea" then you're an idiot. Oh, and you've got a couple of hundred years to move off the fucking island so it's time to get busy planning for the future because the rest of the world doesn't owe you a fucking invariable sea level and couldn't guarantee you one even if the rest of the planet committed suicide and ceased producing CO2 tomorrow.

Climate change is a perfectly natural process. It gets warmer, it gets colder. Sea levels rise, sea levels fall. Tectonic plates shift. Earthquakes happen. Volcanos erupt. Rain patterns shift. Get used to it.

Adapt or die.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Animavore » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:27 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote: the island nations being swallowed by the sea
I want to focus on this bit of hysterical hyperbole. Show us even one "island nation" that has been "swallowed by the sea" please. Just one.
So, you deny that world sea levels are rising, and that some low-lying Pacific nations such as Kiribiti are threatened by this climate change induced rise?

If so, you are breathtakingly ignorant.
This is known. Don't bother. You're talking to an ideologue who believes his ideology trumps (pun intended) reality.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Hermit » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:04 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
Animavore wrote: the island nations being swallowed by the sea
I want to focus on this bit of hysterical hyperbole. Show us even one "island nation" that has been "swallowed by the sea" please. Just one.
So, you deny that world sea levels are rising, and that some low-lying Pacific nations such as Kiribiti are threatened by this climate change induced rise?

If so, you are breathtakingly ignorant.
As I said, show me even one island nation that has been "swallowed by the sea." You can't.
Which is of course not surprising because nobody has claimed that any island nation has been swallowed by the sea. You're just attacking a strawman. Animavore has stated that island nations are being swallowed by the sea. It's an ongoing process, and it is real. We have the data for it.

Image

Now look at the Republic of Kiribati. It's capital's elevation is less than three metres above sea level. With sea levels projected to have risen by between 38 centimetres at least and 59 centimetres at most at the end of this century, I leave the maths regarding when the lot is under water to you. Not that complete inundation is necessary to nix Kiribati anyway. The rising sea level will make the existence of Kiribati as a nation long before that.
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by rainbow » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:48 am

Seth wrote: So you can fuck off with your lies.
Clearly you get upset when you're proven wrong.

Never mind, I'll continue the conversation if you ever regain your composure.

:console: Poor Sethy :console:
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Re: Trump and coal mines

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:28 am

So my country has been wasting millions of Euros raising our sea dykes by three metres.
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