Neil deGrasse Tyson: #Rationalia should govern the world

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74132
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by JimC » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:34 am

eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science? :think:
Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60702
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:36 am

But that's my point. The OP is confusing science with politics.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
cronus
Black Market Analyst
Posts: 18122
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by cronus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:38 am

JimC wrote:
eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science? :think:
Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...
...from a profession that tolerates the astrology of statistics, it's countless regressions and sins. :read:
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74132
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by JimC » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:40 am

eRvin wrote:But that's my point. The OP is confusing science with politics.
Results from good scientific analysis can inform political decision making (and should do more so), but are not some holy book of uncontested truth, handed down from an elite...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74132
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by JimC » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:42 am

Crumple wrote:
JimC wrote:
eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science? :think:
Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...
...from a profession that tolerates the astrology of statistics, it's countless regressions and sins. :read:
I treat statistics with the careful, sceptical regard that is required, if one knows the underlying mathematics and (vitally) assumptions.

Do you, Crumple?
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by Hermit » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:15 am

rEvolutionist wrote:What does that have to do with science? :think:
Marx and Engels said their socialism is scientific. Lenin Stalin and Mao, among others killed in the name of it. "Stalin and Mao murdered tens of millions in pursuit of Marx's scientific socialism" is not a dumb thing to say. Certainly not in so far as they did so in the name of scientific socialism.
rEvolutionist wrote:The OP is confusing science with politics.
The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics. Neil deGrasse Tyson is totally wrong if he even thinks you can have a science-based society. It's been attempted many times, and always turned out to be fundamentally political with but a veneer of science to serve as justification.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
cronus
Black Market Analyst
Posts: 18122
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by cronus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:19 am

JimC wrote:
Crumple wrote:
JimC wrote:
eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science? :think:
Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...
...from a profession that tolerates the astrology of statistics, it's countless regressions and sins. :read:
I treat statistics with the careful, sceptical regard that is required, if one knows the underlying mathematics and (vitally) assumptions.

Do you, Crumple?
Half the time I do and half the time I don't which means I must doesn't it? :coffee:
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60702
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:24 am

Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:What does that have to do with science? :think:
Marx and Engels said their socialism is scientific.


But it's not (rigorous) science, that's the point.
Lenin Stalin and Mao, among others killed in the name of it. "Stalin and Mao murdered tens of millions in pursuit of Marx's scientific socialism" is not a dumb thing to say. Certainly not in so far as they did so in the name of scientific socialism
You seem to have missed the point of the article. It wasn't to enlighten us with the common knowledge that Stalin and Mao killed millions. It was trying to tar science to an extent due to the people who allegedly employed it. The point I'm making is that they DIDN'T employ it. Not least because Stalin and Mao weren't scientists. But even more critically because the so called "scientific socialism" of Marx and Engels was nothing of the sort in terms of rigorous science.
.
rEvolutionist wrote:The OP is confusing science with politics.
The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics.
What people? None of the people named were objective scientists. :think:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
DaveDodo007
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:35 am
About me: When ever I behave as a man I am called sexist, It seems being a male is now illegal and nobody sent me the memo. Good job as I would have told them to fuck off.
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by DaveDodo007 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:40 am

The Rationalia Fallacy.

Why is everyone picking on us, it's not fair. :lay:
We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by Hermit » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:23 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:The OP is confusing science with politics.
The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics.
What people? None of the people named were objective scientists. :think:
Exactly. The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics. Neil deGrasse Tyson is totally wrong if he even thinks you can have a science-based society. It's been attempted many times, and always turned out to be fundamentally political with but a veneer of science to serve as justification.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60702
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:25 am

That's because scientists weren't in charge.

And in the case of Stalin and Mao, they weren't even using science.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by Hermit » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:30 am

eRvin wrote:That's because scientists weren't in charge.
If they were, they'd be doing politics. You can't do government without some non-scientific presumptions that serve as foundations.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60702
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:32 am

Well you could, but it will be a dictatorship of sorts. And as unstable as most other dictatorships I'd guess.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74132
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by JimC » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:08 pm

It's not a matter of scientists being in charge, but that scientific results should inform the political debate to a much greater extent than presently happens...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
L'Emmerdeur
Posts: 6214
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:04 pm
About me: Yuh wust nightmaya!
Contact:

Re: The Rationalia Fallacy

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:41 pm

JimC wrote:It's not a matter of scientists being in charge, but that scientific results should inform the political debate to a much greater extent than presently happens...
Agreed. As a species we've been bumbling around basically doing whatever our leaders happened to find gratifying. The planet is fairly forgiving of that sort of behavior, but we should never forget the story of the Rapa Nui. Most of our decisions/actions up to now have resulted in progress, but our heedlessness means that we are also progressing toward something like a world-wide Easter Island. Paying more attention to what we've learned through science could help change our course to something more livable with much better prospects for the long term.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests