Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science?
Neil deGrasse Tyson: #Rationalia should govern the world
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
But that's my point. The OP is confusing science with politics.
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
...from a profession that tolerates the astrology of statistics, it's countless regressions and sins.JimC wrote:Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science?

What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Results from good scientific analysis can inform political decision making (and should do more so), but are not some holy book of uncontested truth, handed down from an elite...eRvin wrote:But that's my point. The OP is confusing science with politics.
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
I treat statistics with the careful, sceptical regard that is required, if one knows the underlying mathematics and (vitally) assumptions.Crumple wrote:...from a profession that tolerates the astrology of statistics, it's countless regressions and sins.JimC wrote:Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science?
Do you, Crumple?
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Marx and Engels said their socialism is scientific. Lenin Stalin and Mao, among others killed in the name of it. "Stalin and Mao murdered tens of millions in pursuit of Marx's scientific socialism" is not a dumb thing to say. Certainly not in so far as they did so in the name of scientific socialism.rEvolutionist wrote:What does that have to do with science?
The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics. Neil deGrasse Tyson is totally wrong if he even thinks you can have a science-based society. It's been attempted many times, and always turned out to be fundamentally political with but a veneer of science to serve as justification.rEvolutionist wrote:The OP is confusing science with politics.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Half the time I do and half the time I don't which means I must doesn't it?JimC wrote:I treat statistics with the careful, sceptical regard that is required, if one knows the underlying mathematics and (vitally) assumptions.Crumple wrote:...from a profession that tolerates the astrology of statistics, it's countless regressions and sins.JimC wrote:Nothing to do with the true nature of science as a method of rational empiricism with limited goals, but everything to do with the mistaken ideological seizure of science as a political paradigm...eRvin wrote:What does that have to do with science?
Do you, Crumple?

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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Hermit wrote:Marx and Engels said their socialism is scientific.rEvolutionist wrote:What does that have to do with science?
But it's not (rigorous) science, that's the point.
You seem to have missed the point of the article. It wasn't to enlighten us with the common knowledge that Stalin and Mao killed millions. It was trying to tar science to an extent due to the people who allegedly employed it. The point I'm making is that they DIDN'T employ it. Not least because Stalin and Mao weren't scientists. But even more critically because the so called "scientific socialism" of Marx and Engels was nothing of the sort in terms of rigorous science.Lenin Stalin and Mao, among others killed in the name of it. "Stalin and Mao murdered tens of millions in pursuit of Marx's scientific socialism" is not a dumb thing to say. Certainly not in so far as they did so in the name of scientific socialism
What people? None of the people named were objective scientists..The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics.rEvolutionist wrote:The OP is confusing science with politics.

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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
The Rationalia Fallacy.
Why is everyone picking on us, it's not fair.
Why is everyone picking on us, it's not fair.

We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Exactly. The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics. Neil deGrasse Tyson is totally wrong if he even thinks you can have a science-based society. It's been attempted many times, and always turned out to be fundamentally political with but a veneer of science to serve as justification.rEvolutionist wrote:What people? None of the people named were objective scientists.Hermit wrote:The author of the linked article argues that even people who say they use science to do social engineering inevitably finish up doing politics.rEvolutionist wrote:The OP is confusing science with politics.
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
That's because scientists weren't in charge.
And in the case of Stalin and Mao, they weren't even using science.
And in the case of Stalin and Mao, they weren't even using science.
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
If they were, they'd be doing politics. You can't do government without some non-scientific presumptions that serve as foundations.eRvin wrote:That's because scientists weren't in charge.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Well you could, but it will be a dictatorship of sorts. And as unstable as most other dictatorships I'd guess.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
It's not a matter of scientists being in charge, but that scientific results should inform the political debate to a much greater extent than presently happens...
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Re: The Rationalia Fallacy
Agreed. As a species we've been bumbling around basically doing whatever our leaders happened to find gratifying. The planet is fairly forgiving of that sort of behavior, but we should never forget the story of the Rapa Nui. Most of our decisions/actions up to now have resulted in progress, but our heedlessness means that we are also progressing toward something like a world-wide Easter Island. Paying more attention to what we've learned through science could help change our course to something more livable with much better prospects for the long term.JimC wrote:It's not a matter of scientists being in charge, but that scientific results should inform the political debate to a much greater extent than presently happens...
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