41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes

[Hermit]

The point is not whether killing vicious islamic terrorists should be done - it's a no-brainer.

The real point is pragmatic - is a drone campaign which clearly kills many others on top of the targets is worth the cost in terms of the way that it inflames anti-western sentiment?

Sure. It encourages non-belligerents to abandon relations and associations with terrorists, lest they get collaterally damaged.

Interesting hypothesis. In practice it works the other way. Most people are not interested in fighting a war. Not even when they live in a war zone. All they want to do is raise their brood, tend their fields, get wages at the factory they work in and so on. When their sister's house gets destroyed killing some or all of their immediate family's members, they become sufficiently furious to fight the enemy they previously regarded as a mere distraction and inconvenience, or they at least cooperate with people that do. The Germans found out the hard way during WWII, and they were by no means the first to make that discovery. The allies discovered it too with their carpet bombing of residential areas. Collateral damage works against the side that causes it.

[Seth]

The point is not whether killing vicious islamic terrorists should be done - it's a no-brainer.

The real point is pragmatic - is a drone campaign which clearly kills many others on top of the targets is worth the cost in terms of the way that it inflames anti-western sentiment?

Sure. It encourages non-belligerents to abandon relations and associations with terrorists, lest they get collaterally damaged.

How do you know this?

"Habib, if you stay here the Americans will blow you and your children to pieces, you should probably leave."

What if they view the threat of terrorism raining down from the sky the same way we view terrorism here in the west - that is, we refuse to be dictated to by terrorists as to how we should live our lives?

Then they die.

The simple fact of the matter is, innocent people are being killed by US bombs.

War is hell. We didn't start it, but we will damned sure finish it. All the terrorists have to do is a) stop being terrorists; or b) move out of civilian areas so that when we bomb them we don't produce collateral damage. It's entirely up to them.

No amount of rationalisation or application of stupid conservative morals will change that fact. Enlightenment and civilisation are supposed to be about moving on from barbaric actions, not making justifications for them. You and your lot belong in a past more brutal time. Please fuck off back there.

Enjoy your dhimmitude, infidel.

[pErvinalia]

What am I supposed to do with that crap reply? There was zero reasoning in it. Just empty rhetoric. Please learn how to reason.

[Seth]

The point is not whether killing vicious islamic terrorists should be done - it's a no-brainer.

The real point is pragmatic - is a drone campaign which clearly kills many others on top of the targets is worth the cost in terms of the way that it inflames anti-western sentiment?

Sure. It encourages non-belligerents to abandon relations and associations with terrorists, lest they get collaterally damaged.

Interesting hypothesis. In practice it works the other way. Most people are not interested in fighting a war. Not even when they live in a war zone. All they want to do is raise their brood, tend their fields, get wages at the factory they work in and so on. When their sister's house gets destroyed killing some or all of their immediate family's members, they become sufficiently furious to fight the enemy they previously regarded as a mere distraction and inconvenience, or they at least cooperate with people that do. The Germans found out the hard way during WWII, and they were by no means the first to make that discovery. The allies discovered it too with their carpet bombing of residential areas. Collateral damage works against the side that causes it.

Except the Allies won the war and the German people were highly demoralized by things like the Dresden firebombing and the Japanese surrendered after we dropped two atomic bombs on Japanese civilian populations.

You don't get to go on with life as normal if you live in a war zone. That's just how it is. Therefore, it's not a good idea to allow radical elements of your own culture to initiate a war against a superior force like the United States. The solution is for the people of that culture to kill the radicals themselves, before they piss us off enough to force us to take them on in their homeland.

A remarkable thing happened recently...the Saudis and other Arab states finally agreed that they could not tolerate the actions of the "Islamic State" that debase and harm so-called "peaceful" Muslims, so they finally committed forces to the fight.

Where the fuck have they been since 9/11?

Sitting complacently by waving their hands and saying "Oh, dear, it's not us peaceful Muslims doing all these terrible things" while quietly, behind the scenes, gleefully rubbing their hands together as they wait for the radicals to make the dream of every Muslim come true for them.

Fucking hypocrites.

[Seth]

What am I supposed to do with that crap reply? There was zero reasoning in it. Just empty rhetoric. Please learn how to reason.

Fold it six ways sideways and shove it up your ass is my suggestion.

[pErvinalia]

Fine. Produce crap arguments. You only harm your own reputation in the eyes of the alleged "lurkers".

[Hermit]

Except the Allies won the war and the German people were highly demoralized by things like the Dresden firebombing and the Japanese surrendered after we dropped two atomic bombs on Japanese civilian populations.

Dresden was destroyed after the German army was routed. The German armies began retreating in 1942. Dresden got wiped out in February 1945. At that time the Soviet army was within 35 kilometres of Berlin. The only effect of the firestorm was the death of 80,00 people, most of them refugees from the advancing Russians. Similar situation in Japan. It was fucked a long time before the nuclear bombs were dropped.

As for Bomber Harris, he prevailed with his idea of carpet bombing over precision bombing in 1940. The rationale was to destroy morale and hasten the allied victory. That didn't work. What did work was General Spaats's "Oil Plan". Using precision bombing of Germany's oil production facilities Spaats halved Germany's production of fuels from 927,000 tons in March 1944 to 472,000 tons in June. The Luftwaffe's supplies of aviation spirit fell from 180,000 tons in April, to 50,000 tons in June, and 10,000 tons in August. Its tank, artillery and infantry divisions became hamstrung and its planes were practically grounded. With limited mobility of the former and lacking air cover by the latter made the rest of the war not much more than a mopping up operation, and the speed with which that was done from there on demoralised Germans rather than the destruction of their homes.

Be it as it may, the war against Islamic terrorism is not a conventional war. The terrorists are hiding among people who just want to be left alone, raise kids, cultivate fields, or gain a meagre but sufficient income in some factory or trade to stay alive. When an uncle, sister, nephew or even just a good friend gets killed, a few dozen or more of them are going to get angry. When almost 1200 of those basically innocents get killed this amounts to a whole lot of people who now have someone they really hate. They keep hearing of similar tragedies week after week, and finally some of them will decide to do something about it. They join the Taleban. The drones' mishits create that which they aim to destroy.

[cronus]

Except the Allies won the war and the German people were highly demoralized by things like the Dresden firebombing and the Japanese surrendered after we dropped two atomic bombs on Japanese civilian populations.

Dresden was destroyed after the German army was routed. The German armies began retreating in 1942. Dresden got wiped out in February 1945. At that time the Soviet army was within 35 kilometres of Berlin. The only effect of the firestorm was the death of 80,00 people, most of them refugees from the advancing Russians. Similar situation in Japan. It was fucked a long time before the nuclear bombs were dropped.

As for Bomber Harris, he prevailed with his idea of carpet bombing over precision bombing in 1940. The rationale was to destroy morale and hasten the allied victory. That didn't work. What did work was General Spaats's "Oil Plan". Using precision bombing of Germany's oil production facilities Spaats halved Germany's production of fuels from 927,000 tons in March 1944 to 472,000 tons in June. The Luftwaffe's supplies of aviation spirit fell from 180,000 tons in April, to 50,000 tons in June, and 10,000 tons in August. Its tank, artillery and infantry divisions became hamstrung and its planes were practically grounded. With limited mobility of the former and lacking air cover by the latter made the rest of the war not much more than a mopping up operation, and the speed with which that was done from there on demoralised Germans rather than the destruction of their homes.

Be it as it may, the war against Islamic terrorism is not a conventional war. The terrorists are hiding among people who just want to be left alone, raise kids, cultivate fields, or gain a meagre but sufficient income in some factory or trade to stay alive. When an uncle, sister, nephew or even just a good friend gets killed, a few dozen or more of them are going to get angry. When almost 1200 of those basically innocents get killed this amounts to a whole lot of people who now have someone they really hate. They keep hearing of similar tragedies week after week, and finally some of them will decide to do something about it. They join the Taleban. The drones' mishits create that which they aim to destroy.

America is a nation led by a monkey though. So go figure what the rest of them are, no matter color, for just obeying orders?

[Hermit]

America is a nation led by a monkey though. So go figure what the rest of them are, no matter color, for just obeying orders?

Obama is not a monkey. He certainly is better value than his predecessor. As for "the rest of them", the majority of "them" has voted for Obama. Twice.

You're starting to sound almost as idiotic as Seth, Scumple. Or are you just blindly lashing out because your partner is being shouty again?

[cronus]

America is a nation led by a monkey though. So go figure what the rest of them are, no matter color, for just obeying orders?

Obama is not a monkey. He certainly is better value than his predecessor. As for "the rest of them", the majority of "them" has voted for Obama. Twice.

You're starting to sound almost as idiotic as Seth, Scumple. Or are you just blindly lashing out because your partner is being shouty again?

I'll call the whole human race monkeys. I don't care. How much worse could it get? With WW3 brewing? Monkey. Monkey. Monkey.

[rainbow]

Lesson: Don't hang around with Islamic terrorists.

Gosh yes, a lesson that will certainly be taken to heart.

Brilliant.

Why isn't it working?

Who cares?

Probably the next bunch of American killed by the newly radicalised Islamists.

Seriously can't you work out that these attacks are their best recruitment motivator?

Seriously, can't you work out that there's no other alternative?

There is. The US just hasn't learnt its lesson.

There is no making peace with these fucks. They don't want peace they want us dead and they want to war on the infidel world until the Caliphate comes to pass and everyone on earth is either Muslim or Dhimmi, or dead.

These are not people who can be reasoned with, they are fanatics and the only solution to their violent behavior is to kill them.

You have been well brainwashed.
Killing innocent people is making moderate people fanatics.
For every one you kill, you are creating 100 more people that hate you for killing family members that had nothing to do with the fight.

If you can't comprehend that, then perhaps your Dhimmitude has already begun.

Dim are the people that can't work out their strategy is actually counter-productive.

[cronus]

If you are going to slaughter folks wholesale then don't let anyone escape your killzone, risking a metastasis of trouble as they tell on your wicked ways. I'd prefer to spread propaganda by drone. Make them look beyond Islam by drops of pron mags.

[mistermack]

You have been well brainwashed.
Killing innocent people is making moderate people fanatics.
For every one you kill, you are creating 100 more people that hate you for killing family members that had nothing to do with the fight.

Under most circumstances, that would be a valid argument. But in some cases, the moderate people are the problem.
Moderate people put Hitler in power, and did nothing while he slaughtered millions of Jews and Poles and Gypsies and Russians, and tried to enslave a couple of continents.

So fuck em, moderate or not, they had to pay the price.
I think it's still criminal to deliberately TARGET the bystanders. But you don't have to desist from your war effort, because of them either.

The French understood this and accepted it after D day. Even though they weren't even on the side of HItler, they took the civilian casualties without complaint. It had to be done.

[Hermit]

None of the 1147 people who were killed by drones put the 41 Taleban who were also killed in power. Is it so difficult to grasp the concept of drones creating more enemies than they kill?

[mistermack]

None of the 1147 people who were killed by drones put the 41 Taleban who were also killed in power. Is it so difficult to grasp the concept of drones creating more enemies than they kill?

Maybe they didn't, but they've done nothing to stop them either.
If you let someone stand behind you, shooting at people, the chances are you're going to get hit.
Tough shit.
Do something about it, or pay the price.