World Government

[pErvinalia]

As I said, it depends on how one defines "government". I don't really care either way. I just don't like characterisations of anarchism as basically "everyone does whatever they want", which is essentially what Hermit was implying.

[FBM]

As I said, it depends on how one defines "government". I don't really care either way. I just don't like characterisations of anarchism as basically "everyone does whatever they want", which is essentially what Hermit was implying.

Yeah, that's an over-simplification, no doubt. There are various models ranging from "everybody does what s/he wants" to very complex levels of voluntary cooperation, collaboration, etc, but without coercion. IF people were of the proper mindset, there's no reason why today's levels of scientific and technological advances and innovations couldn't be possible. I don't think it'll ever happen, but...

[Hermit]

Medieval iceland... it's laws did not entail imprisonment, and all enforcement was in private hands (meaning laws were enforced by those with the means and will to do so)

I did mention microscopic societies not being a valid illustration on a planet inhabited by 7 billion people. Iceland's population today barely exceeds 300,000. In medieval times it was small enough to allow all of Iceland's free men to actively participate in its parliament without making it unworkable.

I can't imagine that the Althinge's laws were applied without force or the threat of it either. As for the lack of imprisonment, it was a relatively common practice in mainland Europe to ban or outlaw transgressors of the law as well. They were free to roam wherever they liked, but nobody was allowed to provide them with food or shelter and anyone could kill them for any reason or none at all without fear of retribution. Not exactly doable today, and certainly less humane than imprisoning them.

In short, your example sucks polar bear's balls.

[Svartalf]

Force was applied, some times, but only by private parties with a vested interest in that particular act of enforcement (like killing an outlaw who had already offended your clan or your dependents). I'm not sure how enforcement was enacted for fines, weregilds, and other judicially ordered transfers of property.

and Iceland was large enough that not all free men participated in the Althing, the 4 quarters of the island sent delegates.

[Hermit]

It doesn't matter which scheme is implemented. Coercion - and forcible coercion at that - will always be an essential component. Or can you imagine a society without laws, laws, which when broken can lead to arrest and imprisonment? Please don't cite some idyllic island with 250 inhabitants somewhere in the South Pacific. Pie in the sky scenarios involving microscopically small populations on a planet with more than 7 billion people don't qualify, and I'll just raise you Pitcairn Island anyway.

I don't think I've implied anywhere that I thought anarchism was a realistic option. I thought I'd spoken to the contrary.

Yes, and I do remember reading that post. However, the post you quote was directed at [urlhttp://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1541750#p1541750]this later remark[/url] of yours: "Anyway, nobody is coerced to do anything in the types of anarchy I've read about so far."

[Svartalf]

doesn't mean he views it as workable/realistic...

[FBM]

It doesn't matter which scheme is implemented. Coercion - and forcible coercion at that - will always be an essential component. Or can you imagine a society without laws, laws, which when broken can lead to arrest and imprisonment? Please don't cite some idyllic island with 250 inhabitants somewhere in the South Pacific. Pie in the sky scenarios involving microscopically small populations on a planet with more than 7 billion people don't qualify, and I'll just raise you Pitcairn Island anyway.

I don't think I've implied anywhere that I thought anarchism was a realistic option. I thought I'd spoken to the contrary.

Yes, and I do remember reading that post. However, the post you quote was directed at [urlhttp://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1541750#p1541750]this later remark[/url] of yours: "Anyway, nobody is coerced to do anything in the types of anarchy I've read about so far."

In light of that, this part of your statement: "Coercion - and forcible coercion at that - will always be an essential component." needs to be supported. I'm always wary about statements that include absolutes such as "always" or "never." How do you know this with such certainty?

[Hermit]

In light of that, this part of your statement: "Coercion - and forcible coercion at that - will always be an essential component." needs to be supported. I'm always wary about statements that include absolutes such as "always" or "never." How do you know this with such certainty?

It's a natural law, man.

[laklak]

Just put me in charge, I'll sort all this shit out in short order. C'mon, you can trust me. I have your best interests at heart, really I do.

[Clinton Huxley]

Just put me in charge, I'll sort all this shit out in short order. C'mon, you can trust me. I have your best interests at heart, really I do.

seems legit.

[Blind groper]

Just a comment on the 'utopias' mentioned in this thread.

Pitcairn Island has about 40 families, and recently 10 of the men folk were charged and tried in a British court for rape and sexual molestation. Most were convicted. Rather a high crime rate for a utopia!

Medieval Iceland had a murder rate approximately 50 times as high as in modern Europe. This, of course, is an estimate, since accurate figures were not kept, but murders were very common in that 'utopia'.

[JimC]

Just a comment on the 'utopias' mentioned in this thread.

Pitcairn Island has about 40 families, and recently 10 of the men folk were charged and tried in a British court for rape and sexual molestation. Most were convicted. Rather a high crime rate for a utopia!

Medieval Iceland had a murder rate approximately 50 times as high as in modern Europe. This, of course, is an estimate, since accurate figures were not kept, but murders were very common in that 'utopia'.

Yep. Give me a modern, western democratic society any day. For all its faults, it produces a better outcome for the vast majority of its members than any other extant or historic society. We have the rule of law, we have an increasing intolerance of violence, and we have the checks and balances that prevent the worst excesses of more totalitarian societies.

Saying that does not mean an end to valid criticism of any or all existing social mechanisms, but it does put a perspective on either vituperative hatred of "the system" or romantic delusions of past or future utopias...

[Hermit]

Yep. Give me a modern, western democratic society any day. For all its faults, it produces a better outcome for the vast majority of its members than any other extant or historic society. We have the rule of law, we have an increasing intolerance of violence, and we have the checks and balances that prevent the worst excesses of more totalitarian societies.

Saying that does not mean an end to valid criticism of any or all existing social mechanisms, but it does put a perspective on either vituperative hatred of "the system" or romantic delusions of past or future utopias...

You incorrigible moderate, you.

[Audley Strange]

Just a comment on the 'utopias' mentioned in this thread.

Pitcairn Island has about 40 families, and recently 10 of the men folk were charged and tried in a British court for rape and sexual molestation. Most were convicted. Rather a high crime rate for a utopia!

Medieval Iceland had a murder rate approximately 50 times as high as in modern Europe. This, of course, is an estimate, since accurate figures were not kept, but murders were very common in that 'utopia'.

Yep. Give me a modern, western democratic society any day. For all its faults, it produces a better outcome for the vast majority of its members than any other extant or historic society. We have the rule of law, we have an increasing intolerance of violence, and we have the checks and balances that prevent the worst excesses of more totalitarian societies.

Saying that does not mean an end to valid criticism of any or all existing social mechanisms, but it does put a perspective on either vituperative hatred of "the system" or romantic delusions of past or future utopias...

I completely agree, work on the shit that fails us, not read some stupid political choose your own adventure tale and then try and re-arrange the world to suit whatever fantasy you've been dumb enough to buy into. Still, normalcy isn't cool and the perpetual adolescent wants to smash the state, because they are still mad at mummy and daddy.

[pErvinalia]

There's nothing wrong with basing your choice of things to change and work towards on an abstract ideal. In fact, it makes more sense to take a more holistic approach to social management, instead of a hodgepodge of slap up repairs and badly fitting kludges.