Bolivia enshrines natural world's rights

[Seth]

Wanna bet? Refuse to pay your taxes anywhere with sufficient vigor and the government will eventually send armed thugs to take it from you by force. Resist that force with force and they can and will end up killing you. Just ask the fine folks at the compound in Waco about how willing the government is to use deadly force to compel obedience.

Right wingnut "logic" at its finest! You too, can learn to "think" like that from Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh!

It even works for speeding offenses. See, if police try to pull you over for speeding, and at first you refuse to stop, and then you threaten police, and then you act like you're pulling out a weapon, why - they'll shoot you! SEE - the penalty for speeding is death!

Why, when you think about it, ALL minor transgressions of the law in the USA are subject to the death penalty! Yesiree!
Seth - the Idiot's guide to thinking.

That is in fact the very essence of government, which is at its core pure unadulterated force. In any governed society, the authority to exercise force, including lethal force, is vested in government because without such authority, people cannot be governed. Those who resist being governed are subjected to increasing levels of force, and the more force they use to resist such intrusions on their liberties, the more force will be applied against them in order to make them comply.

Take the residents of Mt. Carmel, in Waco, Texas. They were a group of religious people living together who were harming no one. They committed no crimes other than alleged possession of illegal weapons. For that, they were ultimately killed by the BATF and FBI because they resisted the authority of the federal government. 83 men, women and completely innocent children ended up dead as the result of Janet Reno's incompetence and the unwillingness of the federal government to back off or show weakness in the face of physical resistance. The BATF could have arrested Koresh on many occasions when he was alone and in Waco, but Reno wanted a visible, public confrontation precisely and specifically so she could, as she did with Elian Gonzales, flex her federal powers and use the incidents to demonstrate the might of the federal government and the consequences of resisting it.

So, in the end, the peaceable possession of an inanimate lump of metal that was machined in a way that the US government deemed to be "illegal" resulted in the murders of 83 innocent people.

[Seth]

And how about the malaria bacteria? It's been all but eradicated from the US, and it was an endemic disease back before DDT in the South.

Malaria is not endangered.

Stop confusing Seth with facts.....

See the little red dot in what appears to be Georgia? That's the US population segment of the malaria organism. It used to cover most of the south, clear up to Washington, D.C. and beyond. It's habitat and species reach has been severely reduced and it's in danger of complete extirpation and extinction in its US population segment, which makes it eligible for protection under the Endangered Species Act, no matter how much of it is available elsewhere.

The same thing applies to wolves. There are plenty of wolves in Canada and Alaska, but they are protected in parts of the lower 48 because they are "distinct population segments." The same rules apply to malaria organisms as apply to wolves.

Fortunately, due to Congressional action, they are no longer fully protected in Idaho, Montana and parts of Washington.

[Svartalf]

I can see it being used by government and big corporations against indigenous communties

how so, it's been put in place to protect indigenous communities from corporations.

they'll find a way

they all ways do

even if it is by vexacious litigation

Even if "they", I'm guessing you mean multinationals, attempt to overturn by using lawyers, still not sure how the government of Bolivia could use this against it's people when it's been put in place to help the people.

I wonder what Evo would do to a lawyer playing dirty like that...

Given that this thing ought to be calle the Pachamama law, my guess is truss him like a turkey and drag him to some frigid mountaintop, leaving him there to die of exposure as an offering to the deities of the land.

[Svartalf]

A requirement to survive does not make something a 'right'

No. It does not.

But you'll do it anyway

[Seth]

A requirement to survive does not make something a 'right'

No. It does not.

But you'll do it anyway

And if you ask any sentient organism whether they have a "right to life" they will inevitably answer in the affirmative. Even lower organisms will engage in defensive behavior to defend their right to life.

Perhaps MrJonno is different, and doesn't believe that he has a right to life, or a right to seek out and obtain the exclusive use of resources necessary for his survival, or a right to defend his life against attack by others.

Somehow I doubt it.

But if so, he can turn over all his property to me and allow me to put a bullet in the back of his head, because he has no "right" to either.

[MrJonno]

Perhaps MrJonno is different, and doesn't believe that he has a right to life, or a right to seek out and obtain the exclusive use of resources necessary for his survival, or a right to defend his life against attack by others.

I have a strong desire to stay alive but that doesnt automatically grant me the right to, since when does personal desire have anything to do with what rights you have?

The right to life while not absolute comes from the society I live in, a human being isolated on a desert island quite blatently has no rights whatsoever

[Seth]

Perhaps MrJonno is different, and doesn't believe that he has a right to life, or a right to seek out and obtain the exclusive use of resources necessary for his survival, or a right to defend his life against attack by others.

I have a strong desire to stay alive but that doesnt automatically grant me the right to, since when does personal desire have anything to do with what rights you have?

Since the concept of personal autonomy and liberty was conceived of.

The right to life while not absolute comes from the society I live in, a human being isolated on a desert island quite blatently has no rights whatsoever

Wrong. The solitary man has ALL rights. He enjoys absolute personal liberty and freedom of action.

[MrJonno]

Since the concept of personal autonomy and liberty was conceived of.

That ceases to be an absolute the second you come in contact with another human being, the idea that anyone has complete control of their own destiny is completely warped. My survival relies on the actions of 1000's most of whom I don't know and never will, but if they fail I die

[Seth]

Since the concept of personal autonomy and liberty was conceived of.

That ceases to be an absolute the second you come in contact with another human being,

No, it doesn't. The mediation of competing liberties, the assessment of which "rights" prevail only comes into play when there is a conflict between the liberties exercised by two or more people. But the core concept of presumptive absolute personal liberty and autonomy survives such adjudications of competing rights.

the idea that anyone has complete control of their own destiny is completely warped.

No, it's not. It's fundamental to a moral civilization, whose duty it is to protect to the maximum extent possible consistent with ordered liberty and peaceable relations among people the liberties of the individual.

My survival relies on the actions of 1000's most of whom I don't know and never will, but if they fail I die

Only if you have chosen to self-limit your liberties in the interests of personal convenience. The fact that you might choose to do so does not impute to you the power to impose such restrictions on others, however.

[MrJonno]

Only if you have chosen to self-limit your liberties in the interests of personal convenience. The fact that you might choose to do so does not impute to you the power to impose such restrictions on others, however.

Choice doesnt come into it, like most people my skills to survive are so specialised and narrow that without many many other people in the same situation survival is not an option. Human beings are nearer to ant's in an ant colony than they are to lone wolves a weak evoluntary joke alone that is match for the environment. Our sole advantage is our brains that allows us to organise to work together to grow beyond a community of a dozen or so.

[Seth]

Only if you have chosen to self-limit your liberties in the interests of personal convenience. The fact that you might choose to do so does not impute to you the power to impose such restrictions on others, however.

Choice doesnt come into it, like most people my skills to survive are so specialised and narrow that without many many other people in the same situation survival is not an option.

Still a choice. Nobody said life is easy. Adapt or die.

Human beings are nearer to ant's in an ant colony than they are to lone wolves a weak evoluntary joke alone that is match for the environment. Our sole advantage is our brains that allows us to organise to work together to grow beyond a community of a dozen or so.

Yup. But that doesn't mean that the individual does not have inherent, unalienable rights, it merely means that rational self-interest drives humans to cooperate with one another.

[MrJonno]

Stating you have inherent unalienable rights is a positive statement and obviously you can never prove a negative, so the emphasis is on someone who believes this to prove it. All I've heard so far is a desire for it to be true

[sandinista]

[Seth]

Stating you have inherent unalienable rights is a positive statement and obviously you can never prove a negative, so the emphasis is on someone who believes this to prove it. All I've heard so far is a desire for it to be true

Since a right is a freedom of action which can be defended against intrusion or interference by another, I prove the existence of a right by taking an action and defending it. Thus, by posting here, I prove my right to free speech.

[Seth]

Getting your philosophy from a comedian doesn't do much to persuade me of your native wit or intelligence.