Hippie stunned that laws aren't just for other people.

[hadespussercats]

My sister and her husband lived in Berkeley for ten years while she was at Cal.
She said there's nothing like living in the Bay Area for making a self-identifying liberal take a hard turn to the right.

I imagine it's attitudes like the one here that make her say that.

Why doesn't she just give the food away, and take the charitable deduction? She's clearly not making a profit.

Because, by their very nature, liberals are flatly delusional and insane and cannot separate reality from fantasy. She wants to have her cake and eat it too, like every liberal.

That's a pretty broad generalization. The woman in question sounds absolutely juvenile in her own political ideas, just as anyone who would take 'a hard turn to the right' based on the actions of others would have to be. Indeed she was infringing on another's right of private property and breaking laws, but her action speaks for itself. Beyond that I wouldn't consider the Republicans (either the authoritarian conservative politicians or the libertarian conservative tea partiers) quite exactly the party of 'law and order' as they'll break laws whenever they see fit to do so just as well (whether to pass legislation against the will of the people or break regulations that serve a progressive agenda).

So I don't have a problem with these laws or regulations, but it's quite trivial in the larger scheme of things. And yes, I agree, this is the result of bureacracy and there needs to be some changes concerning who the law is applied to - not an abolishment of food regulations - those surely serve a purpose for the greater good. Again, the greatest offenders are not the individual - it's the corporations and their lobbyists. For example, not having to label what country the food you are eating comes from.

Well, I'd be the last one to claim my sister can't be juvenile sometimes in her political views, but don't most people form their political views with at least some recognition of the actions of others around them? Isn't dealing with other people in a society the nature of politics in the first place?

[hadespussercats]

It is a single human selling vegetables at a stand. It isn't a legitimate functioning business operation. I don't think anyone selling vegetables (legally and on their own property, mind you) should be taxed or have to be licensed to do so. Again it is such a non-issue it really doesn't effect anyone besides her and her customers (who have the right not to buy from her). Do we need to put a warning label on everything?

Wait a second. Since when is one person selling ANYTHING not a business operation? And why should it matter if she's operating the business on her own property, or not? All sorts of businesses own the property on which they operate-- should they be exempt from regulation? If she's living on her business property, she can deduct the business portion of that property on her taxes when she files a sole proprietor schedule C.

And no, of course she isn't legitimate-- that's why she got in trouble with the law.

And I don't really have a problem with food inspections. I'm glad the government is at least somewhat concerned with the health and cleanliness of the food I eat.

I'm only half-way through the thread-- forgive me if I'm covering well-worn ground here. But this comment demanded a quick response.

[hadespussercats]

Most food in the supermarket is fine. And, getting stuff straight from a farm doesn't necessarily make it better.

Not true when it comes to food safety - food from small farms is safer. On the most part small farms are more likely to raise produce and meat naturally and/or organically, and if they were ever to have an outbreak, they have much more control over dealing with it, unlike the factory farm - remember the recent outbreaks with the spinach and the eggs? They came from factory farms.

Organic Chicken Has Less Salmonella Than Conventional Chicken, Study Says

I agree, a small farm can't hurt as many people as quickly as a large factory farm if there is salmonella or e coli or whatever (and I'm the last person to defend factory farming)

But, if a small farm is a source, How can the government identify and redress the issue, if they can't inspect it? And the inspection process isn't free...

[Gallstones]

Organic farms, what do they use for fertilizer?
Where does E. coli come from? Where did the contamination come from in the last produce outbreak (spinach)?

Do you know that hens harbor the Salmonella bacterium in their reproductive tracts? That means that the egg is contaminated before the shell goes on. Do organic and small scale poultry farmers get their chicks from a different source than the large scale? They are getting them from large scale chick producers, aren't they?

The only advantage small scale has is that what they produce is more likely restricted to local sales.

[charlou]

A few thoughts ...

I'm curious about the license .. I have no idea, but I imagine being licensed might offer benefits and protection not only for consumers, but for suppliers? Aside from the legal requirement to do so, would it be in this woman's better interest to be licensed for other reasons?

Re the accusation of stealing .. my impression from the article was that if the woman's presence and work were tolerated for eight years then the owner was likely okay with it. The fact that the owner eventually sold the property to the woman would also suggest that's the case.

Increasingly officious local regulations have all but killed off the local produce stands that once made life in Florida so delightful. Clearly, there should be licensing and inspection, but the cost should be proportional to what is being done.

I disagree that it is trivial. Eating is important, and if you don't have a lot of money, those little vendors become important for getting proper nutrition at low cost.

As a Libertarian, I agree. I was merely pointing out the rank hypocrisy of a dependent-class "hippie" who was stealing what didn't belong to her complaining about overregulation in a state that is dedicated to overregulation as a fundamental precept of liberal democrat/progressive politics.

It's interesting that you would categorise this woman as "dependent class" when she's working to take care of herself. She just happens to be doing it in a relatively unconventional way, by urban standards.



I think any kind of self sufficiency is desirable and should be encouraged. Without it, skills are lost and I think those skills may well be very useful in the future when we've finally managed to deplete the planet's resources to the point where we must return to localised production.

[charlou]

I spit my tea out laughing when I read that last line about the "stunned" group of "urban farmers." They are stunned? Stunned by what? Stunned that a business that sells food to people needs a permit?

I'm amused by your use of hyperbole in response to ... hyperbole.



Hades, your suggestion sounds very reasonable. Is becoming a charity initially expensive?


Edit: Actually, can a person who mainly benefits themselves (she consumes her own produce) claim charitable status?

Also, maybe there's a principle here that involves a right to grow produce for personal consumption and to sell small scale without being subject to regulations that create financial hardship. Would it be better if the licensing system were more flexible in some way?

[charlou]

Do organic and small scale poultry farmers get their chicks from a different source than the large scale? They are getting them from large scale chick producers, aren't they?

They breed their own chicks.

[Gallstones]

Do organic and small scale poultry farmers get their chicks from a different source than the large scale? They are getting them from large scale chick producers, aren't they?

They breed their own chicks.

All of them?
And from where did the first ones come from?

True free range chickens have less incidence of contracting Salmonella because they don't live in close contact with their own feces. Over time (successive generations), I expect the incidence of Salmonella in chickens raised this way would be significantly reduced as there would be less incidence of infection.

[Warren Dew]

Also, maybe there's a principle here that involves a right to grow produce for personal consumption and to sell small scale without being subject to regulations that create financial hardship. Would it be better if the licensing system were more flexible in some way?

Personal consumption, sure. I doubt there's a "principle" that can be found regarding selling small scale, since what constitutes "small scale" is inherently an arbitrary line.

[Warren Dew]

Organic farms, what do they use for fertilizer?
Where does E. coli come from? Where did the contamination come from in the last produce outbreak (spinach)?

Do you know that hens harbor the Salmonella bacterium in their reproductive tracts? That means that the egg is contaminated before the shell goes on. Do organic and small scale poultry farmers get their chicks from a different source than the large scale? They are getting them from large scale chick producers, aren't they?

The only advantage small scale has is that what they produce is more likely restricted to local sales.

I think Mai's actual link is valid. Organic chickens are more likely to be free range or pastured, and such chickens are less likely to have infections.

I don't think it inherently has any relationship to scale, however; some organic producers are large businesses. As you point out, the situation with respect to produce may be different than that with respect to chickens as well.

[Gallstones]

Free range = uncaged = thousands in large barns and no use of antibiotics.

[charlou]

Free range = uncaged = thousands in large barns and no use of antibiotics.

You're talking about large scale production, though. Local self-sufficient/small scale poultry farming is generally not so grim at all.

That said, I am aware that due to the population, the fact that most are urbanised, the fact that most don't have the time, the fact that most don't have the skills, large scale production has become necessary. We've got ourselves into a position that seems impossible to back out of.

Local self-sufficient/small scale production is almost a luxury, ironically.

[Warren Dew]

Free range = uncaged = thousands in large barns and no use of antibiotics.

Correct. They have more space, and that seems to reduce infection. Perhaps the large barns allow them to move away from infected birds, or perhaps the lack of antibiotics means the infected birds die quicker, after infecting fewer of their compatriots.

[sandinista]

Fuck the dependent class, I've carried them for too long, so I'm done.

good, something we agree on, fuck the corporate elite.

[charlou]

Free range = uncaged = thousands in large barns and no use of antibiotics.

Correct. They have more space, and that seems to reduce infection. Perhaps the large barns allow them to move away from infected birds, or perhaps the lack of antibiotics means the infected birds die quicker, after infecting fewer of their compatriots.

Gallstones, I read your post to be about crowded contitions, where because the birds are considered 'free range' no antibiotics are used as part of the 'free range' protocal (in a similar way to products being classified 'organic' are not allowed to use chemicals)?