What would a true communist society/country look like?

[sandinista]

oh, yah, thats brilliant.

[LaMont Cranston]

RuleBrittania & Others, I have no idea where you get your info on communes, but the way it is in the United States is that most communes start out with people having these very utopian intentions, and then reality sets in. Most communal living situations are very short lived. In the USA, I know of about 3 that have actually survived since the 1960's, and all three have very strong elements of capitalism as part of their fabric. The idea that everybody is going to share money, property and everything else on some sort of equal basis may seem like a wonderful idea to some, but, in practice, it doesn't work out very well.

Or, if you know of groups, communities, countries or whatever where communism has actually worked, please tell us about them.

[redunderthebed]

To say that every society communist society would be the same doesn't work, just like every capitalist society in the world is different and has its quirks and differences to fit in with the conditions of the country and society but has the same ideas and values. Communism is the same in that respect you adapt the ideology and beliefs of that system to adapt and work in that society it's not a static or dogmatic ideology you analyse the society you live in and change the way you do things to fit but not compromising your beliefs and values.

I don't honestly know what a true communist society would look like and one society would/could be radically different from another but hold the same values and ideas all the same. That's why communist parties all around the world are different but all share a common ideology and values.

Very interesting thread if it stays on topic CES.

[Coito ergo sum]

because you "call" yourself a communist doesn't make it true, same with calling yourself a "democracy" doesn't make it true.

What makes it true?

That is the point of this thread, and so far we've gotten mostly evasions like: there are many kinds of communism (o.k. - what does one form of true communism look like then?), or generalities like "it's a stateless society..." (o.k. - so what does that look like in the real world?), followed by "there have been many stateless societies" with citations to medieval Iceland and Spanish communes.

I am sure that some people who are offering such general explanations don't profess to be in favor of Communism, and are just chiming in with their attempt at an explanation, which is fine. However, if a person does support Communism, I would think they'd be able to provide a somewhat better real world description of just the kind of society and government their advocating.

Nothing anyone has posted on this thread endeavoring to answer the question has been anything other than a bleak, unattractive description of a society I think most people (certainly not me) would not want to be caught dead in. In other words, the best description of communism offered so far, taken at face value, even if we were guaranteed that it could be effectively implement, is something that looks kinda crappy.

[PsychoSerenity]

Private property must be respected because it's human nature and no rule will ever change that. If Thag is walking along with his wife Gaggy and his two children, looking for a cave to dwell in, they may run across an empty one. They move in, and start living there. They claim it as their own property. Later, Bog might come along and say that he wants to live there too. Thag and Gaggy may not want him in there, and will exercise their property right by excluding Bog from the cave. It's their cave. That's all property right boil down to. This is my cave, and you can't live here. This is my fish, and you can't take it from me.

Communism takes Thag and Gaggy's cave and fish away, and tells them that all they "need" is the shelter of a tree, or just one corner of the cave (letting Bog come in and invade their home). Communism tells Thag and Gaggy that they have to let their children go to bed a little bit hungry, because Bog wants part of the fish.

I don't think you're right here Coito. As I understand it, within tribal groups, throughout millions of years of our evolution, there is virtually no concept of private property. The social structure is mostly egalitarian, everything is shared. It's that way with chimps, I think that there's archaeological evidence that shows it's pretty much always been like that, and it's the same in modern tribal cultures.

[FBM]

Too easy.

nk_propaganda.jpg (40.98 KiB) Viewed 729 times

[Coito ergo sum]

The same goes for any society. In a capitalist, liberal democratic society people who choose not to participate are either jailed or rendered homeless. Rules keep the ideology on place. Private property must be respected, taxes must be paid, laws must be followed, goods must be purchased etc.

That is just plain ludicrous.

One can do whatever one wants in a capitalist society. If you don't want to be a capitalist, be a worker and be paid for your labor. Millions of people do it, and millions do quite well, living comfortable lives, in nice homes, raising children, etc. Nobody needs follow any ideology.

haha, like being a worker and being paid isn't taking part in a capitalist society, .

That's just one option. You can drop out and be an artist and not get paid. You can grow your own subsistence food in your yard. What is it that you can't do?

Communism in any case says you MUST work, if you have the ability. And, you will NOT be paid, except that you will get what you "need" to live and continue working. Oh, that's MUCH better.....

No one needs to follow any ideology? THAT is ludicrous. And then more blah blah blah on fucking "human nature".

How incisive! Wow....

Look, nobody does need to follow any particular ideology. Like, in the US, we have communes here, right? Go join one. You can CHOOSE to live in a communist society. Why don't you, I wonder? My guess is because they suck. In the US you can live in an agrarian society, eschewing technology (e.g. the Amish folk). You can sell your labor, or not. You are under no obligation to work. If you do, you get paid for your time. If you want to start a business tomorrow, you can, and be your own boss, and millions of people do it.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to replace that with what you've described? What you describe is a miserable, horrible existence, which limits human liberty to a very great degree.

[Coito ergo sum]

To say that every society communist society would be the same doesn't work, just like every capitalist society in the world is different and has its quirks and differences to fit in with the conditions of the country and society but has the same ideas and values. Communism is the same in that respect you adapt the ideology and beliefs of that system to adapt and work in that society it's not a static or dogmatic ideology you analyse the society you live in and change the way you do things to fit but not compromising your beliefs and values.

Yes, we can assume that there can be different kinds of communism. But, the questions still stands: to those who advocate a form of communism, what will it look like in practice? Are there laws? Will there be police? How are laws made? Can the individual own private property? Will the family unit still exist? Does the individual get to choose what he or she wants to do for a living? Is there a choice NOT to work, if one is able to? Can I rent out the cottage behind my house and keep the rent? Can I buy a used car, fix it up and sell it? Can I grow tomatoes and sell them? Does the average standard of living go up or down? How?

It's no answer to say, as some have here, that there are many forms of communism. If a person supports communism in principle, surely he or she must have a picture of the kind of communism they support, and what that would mean for day-to-day life. Who would support something that they don't even know or believe will make things better?

Very interesting thread if it stays on topic CES.

Thanks! Trying.

[RuleBritannia]

RuleBrittania & Others, I have no idea where you get your info on communes, but the way it is in the United States is that most communes start out with people having these very utopian intentions, and then reality sets in.

Like I already said I've been communes in both Spain and Australia.

Most communal living situations are very short lived. In the USA, I know of about 3 that have actually survived since the 1960's, and all three have very strong elements of capitalism as part of their fabric. The idea that everybody is going to share money, property and everything else on some sort of equal basis may seem like a wonderful idea to some, but, in practice, it doesn't work out very well.

Or, if you know of groups, communities, countries or whatever where communism has actually worked, please tell us about them.

Well du, all communes exist within capitalist societies and colapse due to those outside pressures not internal ones.

[Coito ergo sum]

Too easy.

nk_propaganda.jpg

LOL - women lust after him, children adore him, and men want to be like him.....

[sandinista]

Coito ergo sum

That's just one option. You can drop out and be an artist and not get paid. You can grow your own subsistence food in your yard. What is it that you can't do?

haha, yah, and how do you pay for rent, water, power, etc. Sure you have a choice, work or starve...grow your own food not so easy when the ground is frozen half the year. haha. Nice try though.

Look, nobody does need to follow any particular ideology.

yes they do, anyone living in a capitalist/liberal democratic society, whether amish, homeless, hippy squater etc whatever is still living within that specific ideology.

RuleBritannia

Well du, all communes exist within capitalist societies and colapse due to those outside pressures not internal ones.

exactly, within capitalist societies, and living by the rules and ideology of those societies. Same reason a lot of communist countries have "failed" *terrible word usage), because of outside pressure whether it be invasion, sanctions, coups, terrorism etc. Chile on 9/11 is the most well known example, but there were many others.

[LaMont Cranston]

RuleBrittania, First of all, I can't speak for "all" communes, but I've studied a lot of them, particularly in the United States. From what I've seen, most communal living situations fall apart because of internal problems, and the problems don't have a fucking thing to do with capitalism. The main problem is that people enter into a community with unrealistic expectations, and, when reality sets in, they become disillusioned.

There is an image that many people have that successful communes are composed of latter-day hippie types who engage in free sex, have crabs and other diseases, etc. It appears to me that the communities that have survived and prospered have successfully integrated computers and other things into their chosen lifestyles. At some point, these groups figure out that it is better to get along with the society and do their thing instead of rejecting the greater society.

During the 19th century, there were some notable communal experiements, including Oneida and Amana. The Oneida people ended up making silverware, and the Amana people ending up making refrigerators, washing machines and other appliances. So much for rejecting capitalism!

[sandinista]

During the 19th century, there were some notable communal experiements, including Oneida and Amana. The Oneida people ended up making silverware, and the Amana people ending up making refrigerators, washing machines and other appliances. So much for rejecting capitalism!

communists aren't Luddites.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito ergo sum

That's just one option. You can drop out and be an artist and not get paid. You can grow your own subsistence food in your yard. What is it that you can't do?

haha, yah, and how do you pay for rent, water, power, etc.

You want things for free?

Sure you have a choice, work or starve...

It's not that bad. Plenty slackers about eating just fine, by the looks of things.

grow your own food not so easy when the ground is frozen half the year. haha. Nice try though.

Oh, sorry! I guess the gubment is going to do it for you! That way you get all your food for "free" and your rent for "free," right? Because, let's get this straight - from each according to his ability to give, right? ("ability" determined by the State, right?) And, to each according to his "need" (as determined by the State). So, your alternative to my "nice try" is that we all just do what we're told and take what we get. LOL...

Yes, I'll take the liberty I described to your slavery any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Look, nobody does need to follow any particular ideology.

yes they do, anyone living in a capitalist/liberal democratic society, whether amish, homeless, hippy squater etc whatever is still living within that specific ideology.

No, they're not, since in a free society you can live as you please. If the ideology is "freedom" then you're right. In a Communist society, of course, you have no choice at all. They take your property and income, and tell you what to do to earn what they determine to be your "need." Your argument is like saying Catholics don't have freedom of religion because not everyone else is a Catholic. LOL

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, Yeah, how dare anybody bring up the idea that those people who fawn over things like communism act exactly like religious types. And, while we're on the subject, let's throw out human nature as a reason why individuals, groups and systems either succeed or fail. After all, what the fuck could the way human behave have anything to do with it?

Dude, the undeniable fact is that communism was tried, and it failed. It doesn't work. You can cling to some kind of utopian horseshit about idealized communism, if you so choose, or you can get on with your life. Communism is an anachronism. Get over it!