What would a true communist society/country look like?

[sandinista]

Coito, I think that some folks try to sell the idea that "true communism"...you know, the communism that's never been given a fair chance...would create a world in which there was greater fairness, equality, justice, etc. for all. As we have seen, the more you try to pin down somebody like sandi about specifics, the more evasive he becomes, and he really can't come up with anything remotely resembling a description of what that communist society would look like or how it would come to pass.

What's also true is that "minor details" like human nature and history don't seem to matter much to these people. What is true is that some people are going to acquire more wealth and power than others, and some of those people are going to be greedy, abusive assholes. On the other hand, quite a few people who attain positions of wealth and power (i.e. Warren Buffett) seem to get it that money and power are tools that can be used to do good works and make the world a better place. Contrary to what the sandis of the world would like to believe, not all capitalists are money-grubbing scumbags who have the intention of fucking over and exploiting the rest of the world.

"pin me down" I haven't been evasive about anything. Unlike you, apparently, I simply don't have and don't claim to have ALL the answers. As much as you want me to be the all knowing leader, I am not. As for communism not being given a "fair chance", that, in fact is true. Most countries that tried to create an alternative to global capitalism were stomped on. It's a fact. El Salvador, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Chile, Guatemala, etc. New revolutions are happening currently in South and Central America, in large part because the US is too tied up in the middle east to interfere. Not that it has stopped the interference (Columbia/Coup in Venezuala in '02) but it hasn't been as vociferous. Of course history matters, what are you talking about? As for "human nature", I don't believe it is static, thats all. Not so mindblowing is it?

It seems to me that at least one country that tried it (USSR) did lots of "stomping" of it's own, both internally and externally.

Why is it that those countries that tried communism seemed to have ended up in dictatorship?

As opposed to what?

[Eriku]

With communism being described as a classless stateless society, a dictator would render it a contradiction in terms...

Remember: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

That's the sort of nonsense that can't take root during the revolution if a proper example of communism is to be erected.

[sandinista]

With communism being described as a classless stateless society, a dictator would render it a contradiction in terms...

Remember: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Depends who you talk to.

[Ian]

With communism being described as a classless stateless society, a dictator would render it a contradiction in terms...

Remember: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Depends who you talk to.

"Big man, pig man... ha ha, charade you are..."

[sandinista]

With communism being described as a classless stateless society, a dictator would render it a contradiction in terms...

Remember: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Depends who you talk to.

"Big man, pig man... ha ha, charade you are..."

They took his tongue out of his mouth and cut his body up for sale, for real
You better listen while you can, its a very thin line between animal and man.

[Eriku]

Aww.. lovely to see Orwell unite us all ^_^

[LaMont Cranston]

sandi, I have never claimed that I have all the answers. I don't. I have said that I can't find anything that works better than governments based on democratic principles with an economic system that is a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Other than some more-radical-than-thou coffeehouse rhetoric and wishful thinking, you have offered nothing that would lead anybody to believe that you know of a better system, and you have offered no reason for anybody to believe that society is going to evolve in that direction.

Once again, history and everything else suggest that the exact opposite is true, that communist based countries move, once they figure it out, in the direction of capitalism. Since communism failed miserably in the former Soviet Union and China, your big hope is now Latin America? Dude, communism doesn't work. It's not going to work in the future. Get over it!

[Coito ergo sum]

With communism being described as a classless stateless society, a dictator would render it a contradiction in terms...

Remember: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

That's the sort of nonsense that can't take root during the revolution if a proper example of communism is to be erected.

How is it avoidable, though?

Can you think of how there can be central planning and common ownership of property and the means of production, without some decision-making persons that provide a unity of direction or decide between competing options? Those decision makers are the pigs on the animal farm.

[Coito ergo sum]

Am not an advocate for communism, nor am I well-versed in communist theory... just telling you you can't slag off communism for its dictators

I am equally curious about the actual implement of this dream state, and I'll agree with you all that no good answer seems forthcoming...

I am certainly willing to give a complete pass on the issue of communism and dictators. If that's not what communism is supposed to be, then that's fine. The question then becomes....what's it supposed to be?

And, I don't think it's satisfactory to say that "human nature will change to such a degree that people will all acting solely in accordance with and for the betterment of society at large, and everyone will treat each other equally, nobody will take more than they need, and everyone will give all that they are able, and there will be no differences of opinion on what is needed and what someone is able to do, and there will be no need for a state since everyone will just simply do what's best for the community..."

That's the kind of response we've gotten so far from the communism-advocates. Just general statements that amount to almost platitudes. The basic gist that I get from the communism advocates is: (a) the present situation sucks and is unfair, (b) we define communism as "making it all better, fair and equal," therefore (c) communism is good and the way to go. Conspicuously absent is any description of real world application and mechanics.

If communism requires a fundamental shift in human nature, such that each individual will act in accordance with the community's best interests, well, I feel that is so evidently and obviously impossible, that I am surprised that anyone with a high school education would make the assertion. I mean, right off the bat we can see how in a room of 10 people we can have 10 fundamentally different opinions as to what individuals should do for the betterment of society. And, all 10 could very well be honestly expressing what they really think is best for society. Given that alone, we can see that it's not enough to act in betterment of society - rather, we need a uniformity of opinion of what that is, or we just get people choosing to do what they want, which is very likely to conflict with what other people are doing. It seems obviously unworkable.

We can look at it in microcosm. Anyone who has worked on a project in a group knows full well that if you walk into a conference room and sit around the table, and you set the goal that the community (people working on the project) are all working towards the same goal (completion of the project), you will invariably get people with many different ideas about how to complete the project. There must always be a mechanism to decide what everyone is going to do. Do you have a leader with plenary authority that will listen to advice, but decide on his own? Do you have a democratic process of some kind? Whatever - there must be a decision making process. In microcosm, that is the State: lawmaking body (here's what we're going to do) and enforcement body (you don't follow the law, you're out)

To make it a stateless society, somehow, the project has to get defined and the tasks of all the people on the project have to be set, without there being any decisionmaking process. It just happens, because everyone knows what they need and everyone knows what they must contribute. There can be no leader making decisions (because that's a dictator or a President, and by definition that would not be "stateless"), and there can't be a democratic process, because then we have another state - albeit a democratic one. And, nobody can be kicked out for not following decisions, because whoever is doing the kicking is the State (or, if a private individual, then he's a thug with no right to boot the offender out anymore than the offender has the right to boot the thug out).

[Ian]

With communism being described as a classless stateless society, a dictator would render it a contradiction in terms...

Remember: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Depends who you talk to.

"Big man, pig man... ha ha, charade you are..."

They took his tongue out of his mouth and cut his body up for sale, for real
You better listen while you can, its a very thin line between animal and man.

Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead!
You better stay home, and do as you're told.
Get out of the road, if you want to grow old.

[sandinista]

Ian wrote:

Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead!
You better stay home, and do as you're told.
Get out of the road, if you want to grow old.

I swear I did my best to ensure that
his final moments were swift and free from fear.
But consideration should be made for the fact
that Sandor Katz was my first kill,
so I trust the reader will

[Coito ergo sum]

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 5

[Coito ergo sum]

"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power." - 1984

[Eriku]

You do know that Animal Farm is more or less a metaphor for what happened in Russia? i.e. the story of Communism gone mad...

And Big Brother is firmly in place in London, watching your every move.

I've little doubt that Orwell would be skeptical to the application of the word "democracy" around the world.

[sandinista]

haha, "democracy" that's a good one!