You guys and your guns...

[Woodbutcher]

I hate that phrase of correlation and causation, since it is normally used to cover up ignorance and a very weak argument. However, Seth is using it incorrectly anyway, since you cannot correlate two numbers.

Seth's biggest failure here is that he is unintentionally lending credence to the idea that there is even a correlation that you've shown, when there isn't. Your argument is that more guns, and particularly more handguns, equals more crime. This might look valid if you just look at the US (or rather a snapshot, as trends of gun ownership rates don't correlate that way with violent crime rates), and it helps if you're completely ignorant of American culture and particularly of inner city gangs. However, it becomes much harder to accept the idea that there is any sort of correlation when you look at the bigger picture. Switzerland has high rates of gun ownership and low violent crime. Jamaica has exorbitant violent crime, and a blanket ban on firearms. Japan has a near-total ban on firearms and low violent crime. More guns equals more crime sometimes and less crime others. Less guns equals less crime sometimes and more crime others. The correlation, when looking at the big picture, is non-existent.

Two thirds of all murders in the USA are done with firearms, versus usually less than 10% in other advanced western nations. And two thirds of all firearms murders in the USA are done with hand guns despite the fact that hand guns are only a quarter of all the firearms in the USA. It is not some correlation/causation mix up to conclude that, in terms of what leads to murder, hand guns are a much bigger problem than other types of firearms.

The problem is murders, not the tools being used to commit them. The type of people who are doing the bulk of the murdering in the US aren't going to stop because you ban guns, even if you do a really good job of making sure they can't actually get them.

I agree with this guy.

[Seth]

Seth, what do you do when you fly and can't take a gun onboard?

I try not to fly. I drive instead, if it's inside the US and it's possible to do so. If I have to fly, I check my firearm as baggage and retrieve it at my destination, and I never fly to places where it's illegal for me to carry, like New Jersey or New York. I fly somewhere else and rent a car if necessary. Last time I went to DC, I flew into Reagan National, which is in Virginia, where my permit is valid. No problems at all, just a little more time going through security. They took me to a separate screening area to check to make sure the gun was unloaded and properly cased.

I used to be able to carry on commercial aircraft when I was a police officer, although on a couple of occasions I had to surrender my handgun to the pilot, who kept it in the cockpit for the flight and returned it to me after landing.

[Seth]

Seth, what do you do when you fly and can't take a gun onboard?

That's when the government can get you. Don't fly is the only conceivable answer.

And keep your eye out for black helicopters...

I already told you, they aren't black, they are dark green Blackhawks usually. Sometimes a Huey.

[Seth]

My rights derive from my status as a living human being, not as a function of a grant from anyone or any government. Try to take them away and I will do whatever is necessary to prove that point.

I used the word "arrogant". It is always nice to be proven correct.

If you want to believe your government issues you rights, which means it can take them away whenever it likes, that's up to you. You're just a slave-mentality vassal of your betters anyway, so who gives a fuck how much you're oppressed or whether you get sent to a gulag somewhere when the political climate changes.

I'm a free individual who is fully capable of defending my personal safety and my rights using whatever force is required to prevent infringement by anyone.

I'm fine with being labeled "arrogant" by a servile proletarian who will (perforce) kneel and tug his forelock to whomever holds the reins of power.

[Seth]

My rights derive from my status as a living human being, not as a function of a grant from anyone or any government. Try to take them away and I will do whatever is necessary to prove that point.

I used the word "arrogant". It is always nice to be proven correct.

Taken to the extreme, his road leads to Waco, Texas...

No, the fuckwits at Waco were tactical idiots. You don't fort-up in a compound if you're going to take on the government, you do what the Afghans and Iraqis do, you disappear into the population and strike without warning at significant political and military targets, then fade back into the bushes.

I've been practicing my fieldcraft and marksmanship, have you?

[Seth]

Seth, what do you do when you fly and can't take a gun onboard?

That's when the government can get you. Don't fly is the only conceivable answer.

And keep your eye out for black helicopters...

Fuck I've missed Seth's brand of insanity!

And I yours!

[colubridae]

Nothing compared to the US stuff we get. In fact, you don't really see that much gun violence in local entertainment. Well, I should say popular culture-wise. Australian cinema has always had an edgy sector that often involves a lot of violence, but that's not mainstream.

One of the best violent movies of all time (Léon: The Professional) is an English-language French film.

There is at least one other major correlation with US gun crime. No-one has made it on this thread that I can see so far.

[Jason]

My rights derive from my status as a living human being, not as a function of a grant from anyone or any government. Try to take them away and I will do whatever is necessary to prove that point.

I used the word "arrogant". It is always nice to be proven correct.

Taken to the extreme, his road leads to Waco, Texas...

No, the fuckwits at Waco were tactical idiots. You don't fort-up in a compound if you're going to take on the government, you do what the Afghans and Iraqis do, you disappear into the population and strike without warning at significant political and military targets, then fade back into the bushes.

I've been practicing my fieldcraft and marksmanship, have you?

Of course I do, but I hunt.. deer and other wildlife.. not people.. that's right.

[Jason]

Seth, what do you do when you fly and can't take a gun onboard?

That's when the government can get you. Don't fly is the only conceivable answer.

And keep your eye out for black helicopters...

I already told you, they aren't black, they are dark green Blackhawks usually. Sometimes a Huey.

Are you sure? I've been seeing a lot of Bells around lately. Blackhawks and Hueys are bleeding obvious.

[Seth]

I imagine Seth putting on nightvision goggles and grabbing a shotgun before going to the loo in the night.

Both the shotguns (H&K/Fabarms 12 gauge riot gun with breaching device and the Model 1895 12 gauge) and the night vision (dual PVS-14s in a binocular adapter attached to a Kevlar MICH helmet) are in the "go box" gun safe built into the bedroom false-wall next to the bed and are easily available should they be needed in the event of a home invasion. And that's not all that's in there either. The kit includes one Level IV body armor, one Level IIIA vest, 2 SIG 556s each with visible and IR targeting lasers (Laser Devices DBAL D2) and a Surefire white light illuminator and two 30 round mags with frangibles in the first mag and AP in the second, two .45 H&K USP Tactical handguns (one for me, one for the girlfriend) with Hydrashock 185 grain ammunition and spare mags, hand-held infrared/white high intensity strobe-capable Tomahawk flashlights, and gas masks with NBC cartridges.

Both the front door and the bedroom door are armored and reinforced at the hinges and strike, and the gun safe door appears to be a full-length wall mirror that is backed with Level IV rated Kevlar and AR steel and swings open to block the bedroom hallway inside the bedroom door to provide last-ditch cover.

There's a full perimeter alarm system that reports to the bedroom as well as high-def video cameras outside that monitor for movement and trigger a video display in the bedroom (and living room) if anyone approaches the house.

And then there's the German Shephard, Lylah, who gets really annoyed when strangers come into the house uninvited.

So, I sleep soundly and don't need to gear up to go to the loo, because the loo is off the master bedroom and inside two secure perimeters and two separate alarm systems...one electronic, one biological.

Try to break into my house in the middle of the night and I will fuck your day up completely and piss on your grave.

You're welcome to lie back and enjoy it when your attacker shoves his prick up your ass while holding a kitchen knife to your neck though, doesn't bother me a bit because you deserve whatever some criminal fuck wants to do to you because you're a nation of fucking cowards who will put up with being victimized first by your own government and then by any crook who wants to take what you have or harm you or your kids.

[Wumbologist]

I imagine Seth putting on nightvision goggles and grabbing a shotgun before going to the loo in the night.

Both the shotguns (H&K/Fabarms 12 gauge riot gun with breaching device and the Model 1895 12 gauge) and the night vision (dual PVS-14s in a binocular adapter attached to a Kevlar MICH helmet) are in the "go box" gun safe built into the bedroom false-wall next to the bed and are easily available should they be needed in the event of a home invasion. And that's not all that's in there either. The kit includes one Level IV body armor, one Level IIIA vest, 2 SIG 556s each with visible and IR targeting lasers (Laser Devices DBAL D2) and a Surefire white light illuminator and two 30 round mags with frangibles in the first mag and AP in the second, two .45 H&K USP Tactical handguns (one for me, one for the girlfriend) with Hydrashock 185 grain ammunition and spare mags, hand-held infrared/white high intensity strobe-capable Tomahawk flashlights, and gas masks with NBC cartridges.

Both the front door and the bedroom door are armored and reinforced at the hinges and strike, and the gun safe door appears to be a full-length wall mirror that is backed with Level IV rated Kevlar and AR steel and swings open to block the bedroom hallway inside the bedroom door to provide last-ditch cover.

There's a full perimeter alarm system that reports to the bedroom as well as high-def video cameras outside that monitor for movement and trigger a video display in the bedroom (and living room) if anyone approaches the house.

And then there's the German Shephard, Lylah, who gets really annoyed when strangers come into the house uninvited.

So, I sleep soundly and don't need to gear up to go to the loo, because the loo is off the master bedroom and inside two secure perimeters and two separate alarm systems...one electronic, one biological.

Try to break into my house in the middle of the night and I will fuck your day up completely and piss on your grave.

You're welcome to lie back and enjoy it when your attacker shoves his prick up your ass while holding a kitchen knife to your neck though, doesn't bother me a bit because you deserve whatever some criminal fuck wants to do to you because you're a nation of fucking cowards who will put up with being victimized first by your own government and then by any crook who wants to take what you have or harm you or your kids.

I keep my Hi-Power in my nightstand.

[Jason]

You forgot to armour your windows and walls. What if the bad guys roll up a HMV with a madeuce on top and rattle .50s through your bedroom? Didn't think of that eh?

[Seth]

My rights derive from my status as a living human being, not as a function of a grant from anyone or any government. Try to take them away and I will do whatever is necessary to prove that point.

I used the word "arrogant". It is always nice to be proven correct.

Taken to the extreme, his road leads to Waco, Texas...

No, the fuckwits at Waco were tactical idiots. You don't fort-up in a compound if you're going to take on the government, you do what the Afghans and Iraqis do, you disappear into the population and strike without warning at significant political and military targets, then fade back into the bushes.

I've been practicing my fieldcraft and marksmanship, have you?

Of course I do, but I hunt.. deer and other wildlife.. not people.. that's right.

Translatable skill set. Wildlife are generally much more difficult to stalk than your average clueless human, so fieldcraft skills for hunting translate directly to military fieldcraft skills, just with different targets.

I recall that back in the 1970s, when I was in Florida, the military ran a training scenario up north by St. Augustine in which they simulated a beach landing/invasion and infiltration/assault near the Okachobee swamp. They invited a bunch of locals to participate as OPFOR (Opposing Forces) and outfitted them with MILES gear (old style sensors and rifle mounted lasers shooting blanks), and left them to set up their own defense.

The military was utterly humiliated by the local redneck yokels who pretty much wiped the soldiers out precisely because they knew the terrain and had mad hunting skills.

That sort of civilian/military joint exercise was NEVER repeated because it was such an embarrassment to the military.

[Seth]

I imagine Seth putting on nightvision goggles and grabbing a shotgun before going to the loo in the night.

Both the shotguns (H&K/Fabarms 12 gauge riot gun with breaching device and the Model 1895 12 gauge) and the night vision (dual PVS-14s in a binocular adapter attached to a Kevlar MICH helmet) are in the "go box" gun safe built into the bedroom false-wall next to the bed and are easily available should they be needed in the event of a home invasion. And that's not all that's in there either. The kit includes one Level IV body armor, one Level IIIA vest, 2 SIG 556s each with visible and IR targeting lasers (Laser Devices DBAL D2) and a Surefire white light illuminator and two 30 round mags with frangibles in the first mag and AP in the second, two .45 H&K USP Tactical handguns (one for me, one for the girlfriend) with Hydrashock 185 grain ammunition and spare mags, hand-held infrared/white high intensity strobe-capable Tomahawk flashlights, and gas masks with NBC cartridges.

Both the front door and the bedroom door are armored and reinforced at the hinges and strike, and the gun safe door appears to be a full-length wall mirror that is backed with Level IV rated Kevlar and AR steel and swings open to block the bedroom hallway inside the bedroom door to provide last-ditch cover.

There's a full perimeter alarm system that reports to the bedroom as well as high-def video cameras outside that monitor for movement and trigger a video display in the bedroom (and living room) if anyone approaches the house.

And then there's the German Shephard, Lylah, who gets really annoyed when strangers come into the house uninvited.

So, I sleep soundly and don't need to gear up to go to the loo, because the loo is off the master bedroom and inside two secure perimeters and two separate alarm systems...one electronic, one biological.

Try to break into my house in the middle of the night and I will fuck your day up completely and piss on your grave.

You're welcome to lie back and enjoy it when your attacker shoves his prick up your ass while holding a kitchen knife to your neck though, doesn't bother me a bit because you deserve some criminal fuck wants to do to you because you're a nation of fucking cowards who will put up with being victimized first by your own government and then by any crook who wants to take what you have or harm you or your kids.

I keep my Hi-Power in my nightstand.

Good for you, that's better than nothing, which is what the Brits have. A few more minor tactical preparations would substantially improve your chances of actually getting to and being able to employ your Browning in the event of a home invasion/sneak-thief. You need to set up mechanisms of alert and delay to wake you up and slow down an intruder so you don't wake up facing your own pistol. Something as simple as a deadbolt on the bedroom door will go a long way towards improving your chances of survival.

[Wumbologist]

Good for you, that's better than nothing, which is what the Brits have. A few more minor tactical preparations would substantially improve your chances of actually getting to and being able to employ your Browning in the event of a home invasion/sneak-thief. You need to set up mechanisms of alert and delay to wake you up and slow down an intruder so you don't wake up facing your own pistol. Something as simple as a deadbolt on the bedroom door will go a long way towards improving your chances of survival.

Better than nothing? Better than NOTHING?! The single most elegant and classy gentleman's semi-automatic ever manufactured is not merely "better than nothing".

Ok... in fairness, the Sig P210 and Walther PPK are fair matches for classiness.