Fast Food Worker Strikes!

[Coito ergo sum]

What gives you the idea you're paying for absolutely anything else?

The existence of our welfare program for one thing, among many other things.

The one that supports McDonald's with beef subsidies and depressed minimum wage structures?

There are no direct subsidies to the beef industry in the US. Most of the US agricultural subsidies go to crops like cotton and corn.

Sixty three percent of the U.S. government food subsidies go directly or indirectly to subsidize the meat and dairy industries. Less than 1 percent goes to fruit and vegetable cultivation. Less than 2 percent goes to nut and legume cultivation.

And taxpayer subsidies artificially lower the production costs of feedlots.

The single most subsidized crop in the United States is corn. From 1995-2006, corn subsidies in United States totaled a staggering $56.2 billion. Almost every bushel of corn produced in the United States is subsidized, and those subsidies have driven the growth of feedlot beef and other feedlot livestock.

Moreover, a very large segment of cattle production in the American west is on on public lands. The BLM is the world's largest manager of grazing land for cattle production.

Over the western states, ~ 73% of the publicly owned land is grazed. The combined acreage of public land that is grazed across western states is about 270 million acres, which is equal to the total acreage of OR, WA, CA, and ID.

The article you quoted, but did not link to, very clearly agrees with me. There aren't direct subsidies to the beef industry. There are subsidies to corn, and land/water, which are then attributed to the meat industry. See paragraph 2, sentence 2.

[Coito ergo sum]

Agriculture in the 1st world is about as 'free market' based as the defence industry is

And, that, of course, is one of the reasons why it's fucked up.

[laklak]

There are valid, strategic reasons for some ag subsidies. Unfortunately it's turned into a gigantic feeding trough and the little piggies have their snouts well into it. Sort of like any other gummint program, eh?

[piscator]

There are valid, strategic reasons for some ag subsidies. Unfortunately it's turned into a gigantic feeding trough and the little piggies have their snouts well into it. Sort of like any other gummint program, eh?

What's the strategic reason to eat meat 3 meals/day?


My point was that cattle and beef ranchers are essentially wards of the State, and they get way more from the taxpayers than they pay for themselves.
So to hear Seth snivel about the government welfare programs that make his family business possible is a little rich.

I'm sure he'd prefer to drive his cattle across unfenced private land to the government-sponsored railhead in Dodge or Abilene like the old days. But under a Libertarian system he'd be met with guns at every river and fence, and the private tolls and grazing fees would break him before he got anywhere.

[piscator]

The article you quoted, but did not link to, very clearly agrees with me. There aren't direct subsidies to the beef industry. There are subsidies to corn, and land/water, which are then attributed to the meat industry.

Semantic bullshit, huh?

Subsidies are subsidies, and look who collects the welfare checks:

[Coito ergo sum]

The article you quoted, but did not link to, very clearly agrees with me. There aren't direct subsidies to the beef industry. There are subsidies to corn, and land/water, which are then attributed to the meat industry.

Semantic bullshit, huh?

No.

Subsidies are subsidies, and look who collects the welfare checks:

It depends who gets the subsidies. Subsidizing corn is subsidizing corn.

I'm happy with the idea of repealing all the subsidies, though, absent a persuasive case that something is needed.

[Coito ergo sum]

Much of what is allocated to "meat and dairy" actually goes in the veggie category, since a corn subsidy is a veggie subsidy.

[piscator]

Much of what is allocated to "meat and dairy" actually goes in the veggie category, since a corn subsidy is a veggie subsidy.

No, 63% goes to cattle farmers and feedlots. Then to McDonald's.


Moral of the story: If Seth actually had to pay for the involuntary servitude of others (government) he actually uses, he'd be paying twice as much.

[Seth]

Much of what is allocated to "meat and dairy" actually goes in the veggie category, since a corn subsidy is a veggie subsidy.

No, 63% goes to cattle farmers and feedlots. Then to McDonald's.


Moral of the story: If Seth actually had to pay for the involuntary servitude of others (government) he actually uses, he'd be paying twice as much.

So? I'm against subsidies. I never took a dime in subsidies from the government in my 50+ years of ranching. But I did PAY a bunch of money into the system for things like the "beef checkoff" that forced me to pay for advertising I didn't want or need.

And most of the beef and dairy subsidies actually go to the dairy market, not the meat market. That's where all the government cheese comes from, that and controls on milk prices.

Now crop insurance is a bit different. Because food production is a strategic resource it behooves any nation to make sure that it's farmers don't go out of business due to one bad crop year. This is because the knowledge and skill required to properly farm or ranch the land takes many years to learn. The government tried shoving city-dwellers out onto the farm back during the Great Depression, and that ended up in the Dust Bowl because they didn't have a clue how to actually farm.

In a Libertarian system, protection of the agricultural resources of the nation or community from natural disasters like droughts and floods is undertaken by the community or nation out of rational self-interest, not by coercion.

[Coito ergo sum]

Much of what is allocated to "meat and dairy" actually goes in the veggie category, since a corn subsidy is a veggie subsidy.

No, 63% goes to cattle farmers and feedlots. Then to McDonald's.


Moral of the story: If Seth actually had to pay for the involuntary servitude of others (government) he actually uses, he'd be paying twice as much.

Not according to the article from which you drew that chart. They "attributed" corn subsidies to meat subsidies. They say the subsidy goes to corn, but because some cattle are fed corn products they attribute the subsidy to the meat and dairy industry. It's in the article you quoted. So why bitch about the meat industry and not the corn industry? Corn is in almost everything on the supermarket shelves.

[Seth]

Much of what is allocated to "meat and dairy" actually goes in the veggie category, since a corn subsidy is a veggie subsidy.

No, 63% goes to cattle farmers and feedlots. Then to McDonald's.


Moral of the story: If Seth actually had to pay for the involuntary servitude of others (government) he actually uses, he'd be paying twice as much.

Not according to the article from which you drew that chart. They "attributed" corn subsidies to meat subsidies. They say the subsidy goes to corn, but because some cattle are fed corn products they attribute the subsidy to the meat and dairy industry. It's in the article you quoted. So why bitch about the meat industry and not the corn industry? Corn is in almost everything on the supermarket shelves.

Not to mention the fastest-growing product that uses corn: Motor vehicle fuel, which has nothing whatever to do with meat.

[piscator]

Much of what is allocated to "meat and dairy" actually goes in the veggie category, since a corn subsidy is a veggie subsidy.

No, 63% goes to cattle farmers and feedlots. Then to McDonald's.


Moral of the story: If Seth actually had to pay for the involuntary servitude of others (government) he actually uses, he'd be paying twice as much.

Not according to the article from which you drew that chart. They "attributed" corn subsidies to meat subsidies. They say the subsidy goes to corn, but because some cattle are fed corn products they attribute the subsidy to the meat and dairy industry. It's in the article you quoted. So why bitch about the meat industry and not the corn industry? Corn is in almost everything on the supermarket shelves.

Not to mention the fastest-growing product that uses corn: Motor vehicle fuel, which has nothing whatever to do with meat.

Last I heard, ethanol from corn was a net consumer of high density liquid fuel, but that's neither here nor there...

When you use taxpayer money to make it possible for feedlots to buy corn and other grains for less that the farmer pays to grow it, you're subsidizing the feedlot more than you are the farmer.

[Seth]

When you use taxpayer money to make it possible for feedlots to buy corn and other grains for less that the farmer pays to grow it, you're subsidizing the feedlot more than you are the farmer.

Wanna come up with something other than an ex-recto assertion that this happens?

[mistermack]

Living on fast food is no picnic :

[piscator]

When you use taxpayer money to make it possible for feedlots to buy corn and other grains for less that the farmer pays to grow it, you're subsidizing the feedlot more than you are the farmer.

Wanna come up with something other than an ex-recto assertion that this happens?

"The abundance of feed corn in this country contributes to the economic viability of producing grain-fed cattle."

http://www.beefusa.org/uDocs/Feedlot%20 ... 6%2006.pdf




Comex Corn closed @ 4.54/bu on 9/25/2013.

In 2009, average US yield/acre was 161bu/ac (it's close to that today)


$4.54 * 161= $730.94
$730.94 - $832 = -$101.06/ac before corn subsidies.


A feedlot who bought Sept 25 corn in June paid $0.63 less per bushel than it cost a highly productive 600ac American farm to produce it.

But the USDA insures the farmer against that sort of thing, and this year the farmer will collect ~$170/ac in subsidized crop insurance...
http://www.rma.usda.gov/fields/nc_rso/2009/2009corn.pdf

...so he clears ~$69/ac before other subsidies and tax breaks kick in.


Deficiency Payments
Direct Payments
Production Flexibility Contracts
Estimated Direct Payments
Crop Insurance Premium Subsidies
Price Support Payments (Loan Deficiency, Marketing Loan Gains, and Certificates)
Counter-Cyclical Programs
Market Loss Assistance
Other Corn Programs