Change the name of Israel

[Hermit]

the fact that the ultimate owners of the lands were mostly absentee Ottoman Lords, who lost most of their property when the empire collapsed did not turn Palestine into a terra nullius.

You too need to read up on the concept of terra nullius. It isn't what you think it is.

[Animavore]

Does it mean "neutral ground"?

[Hermit]

Does it mean "neutral ground"?

It means "nobody's land". I've briefly outlined the concept and its connection with the existence of a nation here. Seems nobody who is participating in this thread has read that post.

[JimC]

Life's too short, Hermit...

[Strontium Dog]

The argument seems to be that the land settled by Arabs in the first half of the 20th century was terra nullius, but the land settled by Jews at exactly the same time was just stolen. Even the massive chunks of it that were purchased.

[pErvinalia]

Were there no Arabs in the area before 1900?

[Strontium Dog]

Some, just as there were some Jews. Most arrived in the late 19th/early 20th century, ironically because the influx of returning Jews was rapidly boosting the economy.

[pErvinalia]

Doesn't change the fact that Arabs were dispossessed of their land when Israel was formed.

[Strontium Dog]

Just as Aborigines were dispossessed of their land when Australia was formed. I don't see anyone making you apologise forever, though.

[pErvinalia]

Has Israel accepted responsibility for it even once? Do they give a fuck that they dispossessed Arabs? They are continuing to do so in the West Bank I think, so it's unlikely that they do give a fuck.

[Hermit]

Just as Aborigines were dispossessed of their land when Australia was formed. I don't see anyone making you apologise forever, though.

It's the terra nullius line of argument again ... I expect his [Coito Two's] reaction to consist of heaps of whataboutism and nothing else. What about the Australian Aborigines, New Zealand's Maoris sort of thing. He might even mention the Canadian Inuit and the US Indians.

[Strontium Dog]

It's great this whataboutery argument, isn't it. That way you can deflect all real incidences of utter hypocrisy.

[Forty Two]

that argument may have been used...

Coito Two is using it all the time - without naming it. That's why I decided to focus on the deceit. Yes, of course it's used wrongfully. It is always used wrongfully. The only terra nullius on earth worth mentioning is the antarctic plate.

I never called it "terra nullius" - I've been very clear about this - saying that the countries of Israel and/or Palestine did not exist before 1947 is accurate.

You're still confused about the meaning of terra nullius. It doesn't actually mean anything like "no humans live here". It means instead "this land is owned by nobody". I've briefly outlined the concept and its implications here, but you seem to have skipped over that post.

Once again - I've never said it was "owned by nobody." I also never said "no humans lived there." It was "owned by" the British Mandate for Palestine, and before that it was "owned by" the Ottoman Empire.

[Forty Two]

Lot of words to deny that Palestine was a thing before 1948.

Before 1948 "Palestine" wasn't a thing, other than the name of a "region" with no borders, government or citizenry.

Except the map you showed has Palestine on it with borders. Not reading the rest.

You are misreading it - the map refers to the "British Mandate" for Palestine. The British Mandate for Palestine originally included Iraq and Jordan as well as what is now the Palestinian territories and Israel. The word Palestine didn't refer to a country, but a region. By 1948, the "British Mandate" for Palestine had shrunk to the territory which later became the 1947 borders of Israel and the remaining territories that are now West Bank, Gaza, part of Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Palestine on the map does not refer to a country. It refers to what is left of the British Mandate for Palestine after Jordan/Transjordan and Iraq were lopped off. That's all. The Mandate for Palestine was what was left after the French Mandate created Lebanon and Syria, and the British Mandate created Iraq and Jordan and also defined the border of Egypt. So, the bits that became Israel and the Palestinian territories still needed to be defined and granted independence. They could have made it just one country and called it Palestine or Israel or something else -- or they they could do what they chose to do - divide it more or less in two, and make one Israel and the other Palestine. There you go. The UN and the British divided it in two. The Israeli leadership and people agreed to it. The Arabs Moslems did not. So, Israel got their shit together, and then Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, etc., all tried to invade the fledgling Israel and wipe it off the map because Jew countries are naqbas - great tragedies. Israel won that war, and TransJordan annexed the West Bank as a result. Transjordan renamed itself Jordan after the annexation, because it controlled the whole Jordan river there. Egypt seized Gaza. There was no country or nation of Palestine.

[pErvinalia]

Lot of words to deny that Palestine was a thing before 1948.

Before 1948 "Palestine" wasn't a thing, other than the name of a "region" with no borders, government or citizenry.

Except the map you showed has Palestine on it with borders. Not reading the rest.

You are misreading it - the map refers to the "British Mandate" for Palestine. The British Mandate for Palestine originally included Iraq and Jordan as well as what is now the Palestinian territories and Israel.

Look at the damn map. It has Palestine listed next to what is modern day Israel and Palestine. FFS.

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