What would a true communist society/country look like?

[Coito ergo sum]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

[RuleBritannia]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

But there would be no monopolies, the individual farms would still compete against each other.

[Coito ergo sum]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

But there would be no monopolies, the individual farms would still compete against each other.

So, communism is privately owned, but small, farms competing against each other?

[sandinista]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

What you fail to do here is, you are still using a capitalist mind frame. Profit. When profit is not the goal, but better quality and co-operation is, the whole mind set changes.

[RuleBritannia]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

But there would be no monopolies, the individual farms would still compete against each other.

So, communism is privately owned, but small, farms competing against each other?

No, private ownership is when an individual or group own a businesses and then employ people to work for them. Common ownership is when all those working for the businesses own it equally and run it democratically.

The farms can be big or small it doesn't matter, so long as all the workers own it. But a farmer in Kenya wouldn't own a farm in Brazil, so the cooperative in Brazil would be competing against the one in Kenya.

[Coito ergo sum]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

What you fail to do here is, you are still using a capitalist mind frame. Profit. When profit is not the goal, but better quality and co-operation is, the whole mind set changes.

Why don't you start a business and run it that way. See if the employees' can have their mindsets changed to give you better quality, and cooperate more, without being compensated to do so.

What you fail to do here is understand that profit is just, at bottom, getting paid for one's effort, investment and risk. If one gets the same regardless of one's effort (i.e. only receiving what one needs, regardless of the work one is able to do), then there is no incentive to work harder.

You're somehow suggesting that people's mindsets will change such that they will work harder to get better quality and higher production numbers, even though all you're promising them is to have their needs met.

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, I drink Peet's coffee, and I thoroughly enjoy every wonderful drop of the strong, black stuff that I drink every morning. But, enough about coffee...

You seem to assume that the profit motive is bad and that, at some point, people are going to reject that motive and take on some new kind of mindset. If you would be so kind, just how and when is this supposed to happen?

[Coito ergo sum]

sandinista, I drink Peet's coffee, and I thoroughly enjoy every wonderful drop of the strong, black stuff that I drink every morning. But, enough about coffee...

You seem to assume that the profit motive is bad and that, at some point, people are going to reject that motive and take on some new kind of mindset. If you would be so kind, just how and when is this supposed to happen?

A person makes a profit when when he goes to work and gets paid for what he does, if he makes more than his expenses. That's all a profit is. If he gets paid less than his expenses, he takes a loss. That's what a loss is.

These folks describing communism seem to be under the impression that all it is is capitalism without greed or excess. I'm not sure how these competing coffee farms can exist under communism. Competing to do what? Who is running the farm and why? People just love farming coffee beans and will do so even though they would get the same compensation if they chose to stay inside and so something less labor intensive?

And, who would own the farm? And, why? Owning a farm entails investment of money, lots of work, and lots of risk. If you want to work on a farm, why would you take that risk if there was no expectation that one's situation would be improved as a result?

[sandinista]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

What you fail to do here is, you are still using a capitalist mind frame. Profit. When profit is not the goal, but better quality and co-operation is, the whole mind set changes.

Why don't you start a business and run it that way. See if the employees' can have their mindsets changed to give you better quality, and cooperate more, without being compensated to do so.

What you fail to do here is understand that profit is just, at bottom, getting paid for one's effort, investment and risk. If one gets the same regardless of one's effort (i.e. only receiving what one needs, regardless of the work one is able to do), then there is no incentive to work harder.

You're somehow suggesting that people's mindsets will change such that they will work harder to get better quality and higher production numbers, even though all you're promising them is to have their needs met.

of course peoples mindsets will change if society changes.

[Coito ergo sum]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.

Since the outfit growing the beans would be compensated the same, whether the coffee was good or mediocre, they would do whatever would be the least work. That's why quality suffers.

it's the same reason quality generally suffers under a monopoly. There becomes no urgency to make anything better. You can just raise the price since the market is captive. If you make coffee beans that are a little more bland, it doesn't matter, the customer must buy from you. When the means of production is centralized, it's essentially legislating a monopoly.

What you fail to do here is, you are still using a capitalist mind frame. Profit. When profit is not the goal, but better quality and co-operation is, the whole mind set changes.

Why don't you start a business and run it that way. See if the employees' can have their mindsets changed to give you better quality, and cooperate more, without being compensated to do so.

What you fail to do here is understand that profit is just, at bottom, getting paid for one's effort, investment and risk. If one gets the same regardless of one's effort (i.e. only receiving what one needs, regardless of the work one is able to do), then there is no incentive to work harder.

You're somehow suggesting that people's mindsets will change such that they will work harder to get better quality and higher production numbers, even though all you're promising them is to have their needs met.

of course peoples mindsets will change if society changes.

Describe the new mindset you are envisioning?

People will start coffee bean farms for what reason?

Who would lay out the money and resources to start the farm? Who would run the risk of losing that money and resources? Why?

(remember - it can't be the government or the State that lays out the money and resources, because you've already told me several times that there are no such entities in communism....)

[sandinista]

Describe the new mindset you are envisioning?

One where the betterment of all people come before individual profit...

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, There is something very basic that you seem to me missing. (Actually, there are quite a few things, but let's just deal with this one for now.) What you are missing is that quite a few of us, myself included, think that doing things for profit is pretty cool. If I can invent a better mousetrap, write a great book or do lots of other things, why shouldn't I be rewarded?

I know of a family in Berkeley where the father was a relatively small time businessman, but he kept his eye out for opportunities. After WW II, he missed out on such things as marketing aluminum foil and sun tan lotion, but, voila!, one day somebody came to him with an idea. My friend's father purchased all rights to the idea for $2500, a goodly sum of money in those days, and it was fair deal for both parties. The man took what he had purchased and came up with a product that is used in homes and offices all over the country. He accumulated a fortune of something in the neighborhood of thirty million dollars (probably around three hundred million in today's dollars).

Even the leaders of the former Soviet Union and the current China seem to get it that the profit motive works better than the communist bullshit they were trying to sell. In the case of China, the leaders, in order to stay in power, have let their country go in the direction of capitalism, and, all things considered, it is working pretty damn well.

Excuse me if I laugh when I read your words "peoples mindsets will change if society changes." Just what is going to bring about those changes in any society that will change those mindsets? How about total and complete economic collapse of everything? History seems to show us that economic collapses seem to be precursors of more use of force and exploitation, not less. Or, what, do you think that everybody is just going to get up some morning and say "Oh, yeah, we get it, let's throw out everything we've been doing, change our mindsets and adopt this system that has failed every place it was tried?"

I see many people on atheist forums being ridiculed for the naive bullshit they believe about religion, and I want to have as little to do as possible with those folks who insist that God created everything out of whole cloth 6000 years ago. I've got to say that your belief that the profit motive is going to disappear, society is going to change in some way that you cannot describe and there will be a bright, new day for the dawm of true communism is right up there with all those true believer types.

PS: Have a real cup of coffee on me...

[Coito ergo sum]

Describe the new mindset you are envisioning?

One where the betterment of all people come before individual profit...

Wonderful sentiment. Short on detail, of course.

You forgot to explain why a person, in your preferred world, would make the investment of time and resources and take on the risk of loss and failure, to engage in any industry, if all he or she can expect is to have his or her needs met to the same extent as those who do not make that investment of time and resources and risk.

Comparing your descriptions of communism with capitalism, however, it seems capitalism is better at "bettering all people" than communism is. Capitalism provides private incentive to do and produce things that people need and want. Why start a coffee farm? To sell the beans to people who want them. The customer gets the beans, the farmer gets paid for the beans. In communism, what's the incentive for someone to start the coffee farm?

[Coito ergo sum]

sandinista, There is something very basic that you seem to me missing. (Actually, there are quite a few things, but let's just deal with this one for now.) What you are missing is that quite a few of us, myself included, think that doing things for profit is pretty cool. If I can invent a better mousetrap, write a great book or do lots of other things, why shouldn't I be rewarded?

That's a good point. Writing a book. Under communism, you could spend a year of your life writing a masterpiece and then market it. Your reward for doing that? Your needs are met, the same as if you didn't write the book. Under capitalism, you take the risk of writing the book, and if it's what people want, they will buy it and you will make money. If you're JK Rowling and write something that people REALLY REALLY want, then you can become a billionaire ---- and she was on the dole 20 years ago, living in poverty. What does communism offer the JK Rowling of 20 years ago, scribbling out her first drafts of Harry Potter? Her needs met. That's it. Capitalism offers her more.

Similarly, Steven King - in the 1970s before he wrote Carrie, he was living in a trailer in Maine, making a few hundred bucks a week. He wrote on a makeshift board in a laundry room of the trailer. He and his wife were dirt poor. He wrote. He sold Carrie, and he made money off every copy. He gave the customers what they wanted, and he made money and improved his situation. Communism offers him the trailer he already had, and the ability to keep writing in order to keep getting those basic needs met. That's it.

Excuse me if I laugh when I read your words "peoples mindsets will change if society changes." Just what is going to bring about those changes in any society that will change those mindsets?

People seemed to LOVE the traditional American mindset. That's why more people immigrated to the United States than any other country in the world for the last 200 years. What did they want? Liberty. Opportunity. Opportunity to do what? Opportunity to better their situation, for themselves and their family. And, what did it create? In about 150 years the US had the highest standard of living in the world, with the "betterment of the people" being achieved by people being given the liberty and opportunity to better themselves.

[Coito ergo sum]

Describe the new mindset you are envisioning?

One where the betterment of all people come before individual profit...

The part you skipped:

People will start coffee bean farms for what reason?

Who would lay out the money and resources to start the farm? Who would run the risk of losing that money and resources? Why?

(remember - it can't be the government or the State that lays out the money and resources, because you've already told me several times that there are no such entities in communism....)