What would a true communist society/country look like?

[Coito ergo sum]

In a communist society, since the community decides your ability and what it is that you need to "give" in order to get what the community thinks you "need," then you would not have that choice.

You seem quite fixated on this idea that a person would not have freedom to choose their own job. Why do you think the community would decide what job you can and can't do in a communist society? I don't think it's ever been suggested that that would be the case in any form of communism I've read about.

The basic principle "from each according to his ability..." requires that one's "ability" be determined.

It can either be determined by the individual himself (which is what we in western liberal societies have).

Or, as I have told would occur in communist societies, one's ability would be determined "by the community." Nobody has made clear just how the community would make this determination. But, that's another question.

Regardless, if "the community" makes the determination of what your "ability" is, then it logically follows that the community would be determining what you are "able" to do. Whether you are able to lift things, dig things, carry things, research things, drill things, weld things, design things, whatever.

If the individual remains able to decide for himself whether to start a business, design widgets or whatseehoos, or buy and sell foodstuffs or computers, and all this designing, buying, selling, and otherwise doing of business is up to the individual's discretion then someone needs to explain to me where the communism is. Because, a free market in goods and services is the opposite of communism.

So, that's where my "fixation" comes from - the basic principle of communism.

If you would be so kind as to explain to me - and I freely admit I may not understand what you folks mean in this regard - how "the community" is going to determine each individual's "ability to give" without determining what work and how much of it they are going to do, I would appreciate it. Similarly, if we are promised by communism that we will receive, each of us, according to our need, can you explain to me how "the community" is to determine what the individual needs?

And, does nobody advocating communism see an inherent problem with some sort of "community" deciding what an individual's needs are? I mean, that is quite the invasion of privacy there. What if I need more food than the community thinks I need, because the community wants me to have 2500 calories a day, but I enjoy marathon running and bust out 50 miles a week in training, so I want 6000 calories a day.... is it up to me to petition the "community" for special food dispensation because of my advanced "need"? Or, is it just assumed that "the community" will give me what I want, provided I show some evidence? And, what is this "community" anyway? Do I need to set a referendum up on the ballot and have the community vote on my needs?

[PsychoSerenity]

good coffee Feck?

It'll probably be better than yours, because yours is communist coffee, which is made of 8.5% mud mixed with fresh warm dog pee, because that's what the community decided, and that's how communism works.

[Coito ergo sum]

A capitalist society is not a "form of the same desire of the community." Capitalism allows the individual to make money, generally speaking, as he pleases, and he need not adhere to some community determination of what he's able to do, or what he needs to do.

Of course it is! That's basic economics, supply and demand; the whole point of the market system is to get resources, including labour, to where they are most valued by the society.

As for the rest of it. Oh fuck it. This is ridiculous. You actually seem to believe that communism would have everybody working, in jobs they didn't want to do, as hard as they could, with no choice, and would give them back the minimum they need to survive! All you can see is your own personal concept of communist hell, and nothing anyone says can get you to stop coming out with the same nonsense.

There's just no point in discussing it.

You could try explaining what the good communism would actually look like.

You keep telling my that my conception - my interpretation of how it would work is wrong.

But, you never explain how it really would work. I mean, wouldn't the community decide what each individual's needs are? Wouldn't it decide what each individual's ability to give is? How does the community do that?

It's not just my "personal concept of communist hell" - it's my application of the basic principles of communism to the real world.

In communism, for example, you and I can't own property. And, we can't just decide to start designing and manufacturing widgets and selling them. Why can't we do that? Because the State/community controls the means of production. The individual is not permitted to own and run a business, well unless "the community" authorizes it. Right?

I mean - if the individual is allowed to start up a widget manufacturing plant and sell widgets to willing buyers, then where's the communism?

I'm serious about this. You keep implying that I'm talking "nonsense" and you're impugning my intelligence. Fair enough. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Educate me about communism. Tell me how it would work in real life.

[sandinista]

good coffee Feck?

It'll probably be better than yours, because yours is communist coffee, which is made of 8.5% mud mixed with fresh warm dog pee, because that's what the community decided, and that's how communism works.

Now...that is fucking funny! funny but true...had to stand in line for 3 hours to get this foul tasting shit too...well off to the widget factory for my 12 hour shift!

[Coito ergo sum]

good coffee Feck?

It'll probably be better than yours, because yours is communist coffee, which is made of 8.5% mud mixed with fresh warm dog pee, because that's what the community decided, and that's how communism works.

Wouldn't the "community" (whatever that is) decide how and how much coffee is manufactured?

Let's say it's the greatest fucking coffee of all time. Wouldn't, in a communist society, the means of coffee production be controlled by "the community?" And as such, wouldn't that mean that various individual coffee growers and producers would not be permitted to control their coffee production with a view to producing better coffee than the other guy?

Wouldn't communist coffee industry be directed by the community, and produced only in accordance with the community's specifications, without competition?

What generally happens when there is only one source of a product that all consumers must buy from? Doesn't that source become lax, allowing prices to go up and quality to go down, because the customer can't go anywhere else?

[Toontown]

It's the "communism" picture painted by western propaganda. Everyone wearing the same clothes, working in dirty factories, standing in breadlines, getting sent to "the gulag/prison" for smiling, etc.

Actually, that was the picture painted by reality. It was the commie propaganda (apparently still alive and kicking) that sought to cover it all up.

Some member of the communist party in the former soviet union once said that the cold war was "won" by the US because their propaganda was far superior to the soviet unions.

Propaganda is not necessarily false. In fact, the most powerful propaganda is true. Unfortunately for the commies.

Very true. It was always the case that the west wanted it's citizens to fear communism, and thus painted the bleakest picture possible.

But no more bleak than the picture the commies were painting for us. Clearly the commies wanted us to fear them too. Perhaps they failed to think it all the way through. For example, no people have ever feared anyone more than the Romans feared Hannibal. The Romans so feared hannibal that they were moved to relentlessly pursue him, and destroy his empire.

Fear is good.

Fear makes you pay attention when they're screaming "WE WILL BURY YOU!", while pointing thousands of nukes, lining up thousands of tanks, millions of troops, and thousands of warplanes in Eastern Europe, after mountains of commie-slain bodies have already piled up in various places.

One of these days, you head-plungers are going to have an extraction. I'm sure of it, although I only have vague ideas as to how it will happen. If a huge, hulking, nuclear, military behemoth, bluntly threatening to shovel dirt on your faces, fails to require your attention, then I can only assume that whatever is up in those asses of yours, must be immensely fascinating.

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, Let me get this straight..."some member of the communist party in the former soviet union once said that the cold war was won by the US because their propaganda was far superior to the soviet union." Well, gee, if "some member" once said that, it must explain the whole thing. It couldn't possibly be that whatever version of communism they were selling didn't work in the Soviet Union. It couldn't be that Gorby, Yeltsin and a lot of others took a look around at what was happening in their country and said "Fuck this, the version of capitalism, as flawed and corrupt as it is in the United States, works better than this shit we're doing."

Let me at least give you some credit, sandinista, you finally came up with some ideas, and some of them are pretty reasonable. To your list of ideas, I'd add the following:
1-Make a huge push toward getting the USA off of foreign oil. This could involve either giving private businessess to creating energy from solar, wind, etc., it could be a government sponsored program, or, most likely, it would be a combination of both.
2-Create some kind of youth core...actually, it would be open to all ages...to have people volunteer to spend a year or more doing things like repairing bridges, roads and other parts of the falling-apart infrastructure. For each year that a person spend in this volunteer program, they would get a year of college tuition paid for.

Some folks seem to have a problem with some other people having to work at places like McDonalds. Let's face it, working a fast food places and saying "Would you like fries with that?" is hardly anybody's idea of a glamorous job, but, most likely, most of those people were not going to wind up as the CEO of IBM or Microsoft anyway. People can aspire to be an actor, a rock star, a artist or whatever, but, bottom line, the odds of anybody making it are probably something like 100,000 to 1...maybe higher.

Part of the problem you have with wanting to change the world in such a way that your version of communism (the real, true communism) has its day in the sun is that you have no way to get from here to there.

[LaMont Cranston]

psychoserenity, Let me get this straight...

All we have to do is get rid of all of those corporate lawyers, those hedge funds guys, those magazines selling misinformation and nonsense, the fashion and beauty industry, etc., and "communism could cut out most of that," if, gee whiz, we were only to give communism a chance. Even if that were true, instead of being laughable nonsense and a total crock of shit, just how do you propose to make these changes happen?

How about we vote on it? What you don't seem to realize is that, for example, all of that fashion and beauty stuff is around because lots of people, especially women, want all of that stuff to be there. If you'lll notice how women who were oppressed in places like the Soviet Union, China and the Middle East behave when they get more freedrom, virtually all of them go for that stuff; they want to have at least some of the finer things in life.

How about we use violence to accomplish this peaceful state of communism? Do we even have to discuss that other than saying it is obviously, a total loser?

How about we raise the consciousness of the world, and, some glorious day, the workers of the world and all those others who are being exploited will see that clear-thinking and rationality are the way to go? If you know of any way to have that happen, I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.

[PsychoSerenity]

psychoserenity, Let me get this straight...

No sorry LaMont, you seem to have got it all rather wonky again. Better luck next time though.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's the "communism" picture painted by western propaganda. Everyone wearing the same clothes, working in dirty factories, standing in breadlines, getting sent to "the gulag/prison" for smiling, etc.

Actually, that was the picture painted by reality. It was the commie propaganda (apparently still alive and kicking) that sought to cover it all up.

Some member of the communist party in the former soviet union once said that the cold war was "won" by the US because their propaganda was far superior to the soviet unions.

Propaganda is not necessarily false. In fact, the most powerful propaganda is true. Unfortunately for the commies.

Very true. It was always the case that the west wanted it's citizens to fear communism, and thus painted the bleakest picture possible.

But no more bleak than the picture the commies were painting for us. Clearly the commies wanted us to fear them too. Perhaps they failed to think it all the way through. For example, no people have ever feared anyone more than the Romans feared Hannibal. The Romans so feared hannibal that they were moved to relentlessly pursue him, and destroy his empire.

Fear is good.

Fear makes you pay attention when they're screaming "WE WILL BURY YOU!", while pointing thousands of nukes, lining up thousands of tanks, millions of troops, and thousands of warplanes in Eastern Europe, after mountains of commie-slain bodies have already piled up in various places.

One of these days, you head-plungers are going to have an extraction. I'm sure of it, although I only have vague ideas as to how it will happen. If a huge, hulking, nuclear, military behemoth, bluntly threatening to shovel dirt on your faces, fails to require your attention, then I can only assume that whatever is up in those asses of yours, must be immensely fascinating.

I find it curious that on the one hand we are told that the Soviet Union wasn't "really" communism, but then those same folks defend Soviet Communism as in reality good (and only painted bad by the evil western Enlightenment liberal nations).

Propaganda? Please...people lining up for bread and regular shortages of basic, staple consumer goods in the Soviet Union is well known and well-documented. We're talking about a country that in certain areas rationed milk by prescription....

[PsychoSerenity]

I find it curious that on the one hand we are told that the Soviet Union wasn't "really" communism, but then those same folks defend Soviet Communism as in reality good (and only painted bad by the evil western Enlightenment liberal nations).

Firstly, nobody is denying they had problems. And secondly, why do you find it curious? The two things are far from mutually exclusive, so anybody who wasn't completely single minded would be looking at both points of view. Mmm.. I do love a cup of communist coffee.

Edit: Oooh it's my 666th post as well! Commies are all devil worshippers, right?

[LaMont Cranston]

psychoserenity, I think we all get it that "better luck next time" qualifies as a deep and well thought out comeback from you. By the way, "luck" has very little to do with it. So it goes down on the farm...

[sandinista]

sandinista, Let me get this straight..."some member of the communist party in the former soviet union once said that the cold war was won by the US because their propaganda was far superior to the soviet union." Well, gee, if "some member" once said that, it must explain the whole thing. It couldn't possibly be that whatever version of communism they were selling didn't work in the Soviet Union. It couldn't be that Gorby, Yeltsin and a lot of others took a look around at what was happening in their country and said "Fuck this, the version of capitalism, as flawed and corrupt as it is in the United States, works better than this shit we're doing."

Not true at all. What you're saying is no more reliable than what I said, which was not meant as a "be all truth" simply an anecdote.
Watch that video I posted a few pages back if you are really interested in how the soviet union was overthrown.

[Trolldor]

The Soviet Union collapsed because they pulled a North Korea and completely failed to manage themselves financially.

China seems to survive fine because it has a far more balanced economy with Capitalist Aspects.

[sandinista]

That simple was it? No other factors to consider. OK. In reality things are not that simple.