Germany to allow third gender in registry of births

[NineBerry]

In my childhood I grew up with my father teasing me with the German saying "Gingers always carry stones in their pockets" meaning we are deviant mischievous bastards.

[pErvinalia]

And you shouldn't stop to shit, either!

[Woodbutcher]

I still say that the pronoun for the third, obscure gender should reflect all possibilities; he, she and it. My choice: h'orsh'it.

[NineBerry]

There's nothing obscure about this. Denying the existence of intersexuals and calling the idea horseshit is no better than the president of Iran saying there were no homosexuals in Iran.

[Woodbutcher]

There's nothing obscure about this. Denying the existence of intersexuals and calling the idea horseshit is no better than the president of Iran saying there were no homosexuals in Iran.

If it is biological, yes, there are those who can be of mixtures of both sexes. They used to be called hermaphrodites, and caused controversy in sports, for example. What I'm against is SJWs calling for non-identification of a kid's sexual phenotype. Anyone advocating non-genderness can shove an instrument of their choice up the orifice of their choice. In any case, Finnish is a gender-neutral language.

[Brian Peacock]

I'm intensely, profoundly indifferent to however people want to identify themselves - whether that's expressed in gender terms or in terms of musical preference or political affiliation. Far more important is what they say and do, their values, their moral and ethical outlook. I mean, I hate Country music with the same passion as any self-respecting right-thinking person, but if a member of my family wanted to identify themselves as 'a little bit Country', well, I'd say good luck to them - just don't play that shit on my stereo.

[Sean Hayden]

[Forty Two]

I'm intensely, profoundly indifferent to however people want to identify themselves - whether that's expressed in gender terms or in terms of musical preference or political affiliation. Far more important is what they say and do, their values, their moral and ethical outlook. I mean, I hate Country music with the same passion as any self-respecting right-thinking person, but if a member of my family wanted to identify themselves as 'a little bit Country', well, I'd say good luck to them - just don't play that shit on my stereo.

Sure, but there are medical reasons for wanting to know a person's sex, so allowing people to put "a little bit Rock n Roll" in the "sex" space on a medical form or health insurance form doesn't appear reasonable, even though most of us don't give a fuck what anyone "identifies" as.

Also, it's one thing to say that one's own identity as an Otherkin or a Brony or to be a white guy who "identifies" as Filipino doesn't hurt anyone and people should do what they want, and it's another to extrapolate from that that that the rest of us has to do anything because of that. I mean, are we REQUIRED to give a fuck now? If someone says "I'm gender fluid" -- can I say "I don't give a flying fuck what your gender is?" or is that going to then be considered hate speech? If they want to be called Xe or Zhi, do I have to remember that? Or, can I not give a fuck and say "good luck to you..." and move on with my life?

What tends to happen with these issues is that it's not just a function of someone wanting to do what THEY want, they also want other people "respect" it and other people to have their behaviors and words restricted as a result. You must use the proper pronoun, and I get to decide on a daily basis what that pronoun is which may vary, because I'm gender fluid.

You can be a hippie if you want, but I don't have to like hippies. You can be a Christian if you want, but I don't have to like Christians. You can like masturbating into potted plants if you want, but I don't have to like that either. Whether you think you're a girl or a boy or something in between, or a black person or a Filipino, well, that's up to you. I just don't think I should have to worry about what you think you are.

[NineBerry]

You still don't get that this is about people who have no distinct sex.

[Brian Peacock]

I'm intensely, profoundly indifferent to however people want to identify themselves - whether that's expressed in gender terms or in terms of musical preference or political affiliation. Far more important is what they say and do, their values, their moral and ethical outlook. I mean, I hate Country music with the same passion as any self-respecting right-thinking person, but if a member of my family wanted to identify themselves as 'a little bit Country', well, I'd say good luck to them - just don't play that shit on my stereo.

Sure, but there are medical reasons for wanting to know a person's sex, so allowing people to put "a little bit Rock n Roll" in the "sex" space on a medical form or health insurance form doesn't appear reasonable, even though most of us don't give a fuck what anyone "identifies" as.

"Good day A Little Bit Of Rock n Roll, how can we help you today?"
"Please call me AL, and I think I've got a wart on my penis."

Also, it's one thing to say that one's own identity as an Otherkin or a Brony or to be a white guy who "identifies" as Filipino doesn't hurt anyone and people should do what they want, and it's another to extrapolate from that that that the rest of us has to do anything because of that. I mean, are we REQUIRED to give a fuck now? If someone says "I'm gender fluid" -- can I say "I don't give a flying fuck what your gender is?" or is that going to then be considered hate speech? If they want to be called Xe or Zhi, do I have to remember that? Or, can I not give a fuck and say "good luck to you..." and move on with my life?

Why do you seem to feel so oppressed by the sensibilities of others - as if they have some magical power over you? OK, so you don't think we can extrapolate from someone's self-declared identity any obligation to respect that identity - but who is obliging you to make such an extrapolation? Who is forcing you to respect and condone that which you do not respect or condone, and on what basis would you like us to respect and/or condone your position on that?

What tends to happen with these issues is that it's not just a function of someone wanting to do what THEY want, they also want other people "respect" it and other people to have their behaviors and words restricted as a result. You must use the proper pronoun, and I get to decide on a daily basis what that pronoun is which may vary, because I'm gender fluid.

As I said before, so what(?), and as I mentioned before, referring to one's male co-workers as 'Ladies' might form part of good-natured, light-hearted workplace badinage and ribaldry, but it could also be used to disparage and belittle. Imagine if someone constantly referred to you as a 'Lady', or made a point of applying female pronouns to you. Now imagine that you asked them not to do that any more. Do you think the argument you supplied above should now be applied to you too?

You can be a hippie if you want, but I don't have to like hippies. You can be a Christian if you want, but I don't have to like Christians. You can like masturbating into potted plants if you want, but I don't have to like that either. Whether you think you're a girl or a boy or something in between, or a black person or a Filipino, well, that's up to you. I just don't think I should have to worry about what you think you are.

Who is obliging you to 'like' trans people or those of indeterminate gender? If you don't like them you don't like them - though I'd be interested to know on what basis you can be so sure that none among that particular group are worthy of you liking -- but tell me, what is the difference between, say, you insisting that your co-workers recognise and address you as male and the same acknowledgements and provisions being made and afforded to those who you don't want to be made to like? Is the difference just that: their difference?

[laklak]

I ain't picky. Iffin it's got a hole, I'll fuck it.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[rainbow]

Or, can I not give a fuck and say "good luck to you..." and move on with my life?

You may.

I doubt whether you can though.

[Forty Two]

You still don't get that this is about people who have no distinct sex.

It's partly about that, yes. I was responding to someone who posted about not caring what anyone identifies as, including as being "A little bit country."

[NineBerry]

The You included Brian. Should I have used a star to signal that he was meant to?

[Forty Two]

Also, it's one thing to say that one's own identity as an Otherkin or a Brony or to be a white guy who "identifies" as Filipino doesn't hurt anyone and people should do what they want, and it's another to extrapolate from that that that the rest of us has to do anything because of that. I mean, are we REQUIRED to give a fuck now? If someone says "I'm gender fluid" -- can I say "I don't give a flying fuck what your gender is?" or is that going to then be considered hate speech? If they want to be called Xe or Zhi, do I have to remember that? Or, can I not give a fuck and say "good luck to you..." and move on with my life?

Why do you seem to feel so oppressed by the sensibilities of others - as if they have some magical power over you?

I don't feel oppressed by the sensibilities of others. I oppose their sensibilities being used as a justification for telling other people what to do, what to say, and what to think. If someone wants to identify as whatever, that's fine. I am not, however, required to respect it, to like it, or to speak in designated terms. The identity politics movement wishes to require me to respect it, to like it and to use certain words.

OK, so you don't think we can extrapolate from someone's self-declared identity any obligation to respect that identity

Right, I don't think people should be required to "respect" other people. Respect is a feeling or notion of esteem for another person, proper acceptance or courtesy, deference to a right or privilege - that kind of thing -- it's a thought and a feeling. If there is one aspect of a person's existence that remains inviolate, it's their thoughts and feelings, including disrespect for others and even misanthropy across the board.

- but who is obliging you to make such an extrapolation? Who is forcing you to respect and condone that which you do not respect or condone, and on what basis would you like us to respect and/or condone your position on that?

I don't need your respect or for you to condone anything I do or say. The obligation that the identity politic folks want to impose includes, for example, the obligation to use certain pronouns. If a teacher does not use the right pronoun, for example, he can in some jurisdictions lose his job. That's the obligation I extrapolate. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/teac ... -qjrjtvc0l - in New York folks can lose their jobs and be fined for the same type of thing.

What tends to happen with these issues is that it's not just a function of someone wanting to do what THEY want, they also want other people "respect" it and other people to have their behaviors and words restricted as a result. You must use the proper pronoun, and I get to decide on a daily basis what that pronoun is which may vary, because I'm gender fluid.

As I said before, so what(?), and as I mentioned before, referring to one's male co-workers as 'Ladies' might form part of good-natured, light-hearted workplace badinage and ribaldry, but it could also be used to disparage and belittle. Imagine if someone constantly referred to you as a 'Lady', or made a point of applying female pronouns to you. Now imagine that you asked them not to do that any more. Do you think the argument you supplied above should now be applied to you too?

Yes. These are words. Such an etiquette dispute is something people work out privately in a free society. They should not have the law impose an obligation to show respect or to refer to people as something. It's like someone entering a room full of people and saying "hey, guys, good morning." There may be both biological males and females who object to being called "guys," and would you have each person in the group be given veto power to declare that reference verboten? "I don't like being called a guy." What do you want to be called? "A man." Ok. "hey guys and man, good morning." Oh, wait, I don't like being called a guy or a man, I want to be called an other."

You can be a hippie if you want, but I don't have to like hippies. You can be a Christian if you want, but I don't have to like Christians. You can like masturbating into potted plants if you want, but I don't have to like that either. Whether you think you're a girl or a boy or something in between, or a black person or a Filipino, well, that's up to you. I just don't think I should have to worry about what you think you are.

Who is obliging you to 'like' trans people or those of indeterminate gender? If you don't like them you don't like them - though I'd be interested to know on what basis you can be so sure that none among that particular group are worthy of you liking -- but tell me, what is the difference between, say, you insisting that your co-workers recognise and address you as male and the same acknowledgements and provisions being made and afforded to those who you don't want to be made to like? Is the difference just that: their difference?

Look, if a guy comes into my place of business, and he's White Irishman, and fills out a form declaring that he's a black Filipino woman, then I don't have to accept that, yet the identity politics folks are pushing the agenda that I do have to. We all have to, out of recognition of their humanity, and we have to refer to them as what they want to be referred to as, which can change tomorrow.

If someone were to refer to me in a way that I didn't find acceptable, then I could certainly work it out with them. If I felt they did not respect me and I couldn't work it out with them, then I'd have to find someone else to be around. I would not have legal recourse to force them. Are you under the impression that straight, white males have traditionally had legal recourse when someone calls them a "lady?" Of course we haven't. [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P6fxWZVEcg[/youtube] So, it's not the same provision afforded to me. There has never been an agency with which to file a report that I, as a white male, am being misgendered. That's new.