Hillsborough. The amazing bending of the truth.

[JimC]

Get ready for a rare statement:

Strontium Dog is correct and mistermack is talking shit. The police were entirely responsible for this. mm's case rests on the behaviour of the crowd, but I suggest he has no idea of how crowds naturally work, not least when they're forced (and yes, I do mean forced) into a confined space via choke points.

The Liverpool fans were not to blame for this, it was the ineptitude of the police, hence their need to actively cover it up.

Both could be true, in that the police made bad decisions (in hindsight), and many in the crowd made stupid decisions (which is short of assigning moral blame).

[hackenslash]

Some looking at the dynamics of how crowds work would be in order. Just the way that pressures apply in crowds is similar to fluid dynamics. The individual components have very little control over what happens. It was the opening of the gate that did it.

[mistermack]

Get ready for a rare statement:

Strontium Dog is correct and mistermack is talking shit. The police were entirely responsible for this. mm's case rests on the behaviour of the crowd, but I suggest he has no idea of how crowds naturally work, not least when they're forced (and yes, I do mean forced) into a confined space via choke points.

The Liverpool fans were not to blame for this, it was the ineptitude of the police, hence their need to actively cover it up.

It seem like you have no idea of how crowds work, or you would have enlightened us.
I actually do know something of how crowds work. There is a basic difference between a crowd of cattle, and a crowd of humans. Or there should be.
You seem to suggest that crowds will naturally crush people to death, unless the police are there to make the right decisions for them. That suggests to me that you know fuck-all, because it doesn't happen.
Crowds are a day-to-day fact of life in all sorts of situations. Crush deaths are extremely rare.

[hackenslash]

Is any of that what I actually said?

You really are an ignorant twat.

[pErvinalia]

Get ready for a rare statement:

Strontium Dog is correct and mistermack is talking shit. The police were entirely responsible for this. mm's case rests on the behaviour of the crowd, but I suggest he has no idea of how crowds naturally work, not least when they're forced (and yes, I do mean forced) into a confined space via choke points.

Yeah, I was going to make that point about crowd dynamics, but don't really know enough about the events to warrant sticking my head up. But it is farcical to blame a "crowd of people". The actions of crowds are emergent type behaviours that you can't pin down on individuals in the crowd.

[mistermack]

Some looking at the dynamics of how crowds work would be in order. Just the way that pressures apply in crowds is similar to fluid dynamics. The individual components have very little control over what happens. It was the opening of the gate that did it.

That really is the most mindless drivel.

A crowd of humans is totally different to an unthinking fluid. Each individual human has a brain. Fluids have none.
A crowd of commuters is different to a crowd of football fans.
A crowd of rugby fans is a lot different to a crowd of football fans.
Fluids react automatically. Humans have choices.

[pErvinalia]

But humans become more instinctual in highly emotional/stressful situations. At the point that things started to go wrong, there wouldn't have been a lot of considered thinking going on. It would have been more purely reaction.

[hackenslash]

That really is the most mindless drivel.

Yes, because you could recognise mindless drivel if you saw it, genius.

A crowd of humans is totally different to an unthinking fluid. Each individual human has a brain. Fluids have none.
A crowd of commuters is different to a crowd of football fans.
A crowd of rugby fans is a lot different to a crowd of football fans.
Fluids react automatically. Humans have choices.

You know precisely fuck all about how individuals in a crowd actually behave, do you? Probably never been to a football match or similar with large crowds in small spaces.

Talking shit, just for a change. If brains were turds, you might be useful.

[mistermack]

But humans become more instinctual in highly emotional/stressful situations. At the point that things started to go wrong, there wouldn't have been a lot of considered thinking going on. It would have been more purely reaction.

In a situation of fear and panic, of course people don't stop to think. That's perfectly excusable.

That doesn't apply in this case. The crush was caused by people trying to get IN, not people trying to escape.
They didn't want to miss a few minutes of the game. That's what the ''panic'' was all about.

[mistermack]

Hackenslash, that's better, mindless drivel and abuse is what you do best.

You should stick to what you're good at.

Arguing a case isn't your forte.

[hackenslash]

[hackenslash]

Hackenslash, that's better, mindless drivel and abuse is what you do best.

Actually, demolishing mindless drivel is what I'm known for.

You should stick to what you're good at.

Indeed, and here I am doing it.

Arguing a case isn't your forte.

You wouldn't know a case or an argument if it shot you in the face. Really, you want to start e-peening with me? You haven't a prayer.

[mistermack]

That's great.

Let the telly do your thinking for you. Can't be any worse.

[hackenslash]

I don't even watch telly. I presented a documentary for those unfamiliar with the issues. You have a problem with that?

[mistermack]

I don't even watch telly. I presented a documentary for those unfamiliar with the issues. You have a problem with that?

Yes. You present a documentary that you haven't watched? That's about your level.