SNP acting like "spoilt children"

[ronmcd]

A yes vote means Scotland is out of the Sterling zone as that has been made clear. Salmond wants an independent Scotland to be part of the Euro (or how else is Scotland going to be allow to join the EU) though he can't say this out loud because it will scare off the 'don't knows.'

The EURO may be a long term possibility, and Salmond (like the Libdems up to and including their 2010 manifesto) supported EURO in the past. Before it's problems.

But there is no plan to join the EURO, and contrary to the political bullshit from the anti independence parties & a compliant media, there is no way to force Scotland to join the EURO even if we had to join EU as a brand new accession member (which we wont, as we arent an accession country, we are already in EU with full compliance).

1) there is nothing at all in the treaties which even mention the situation Scotland is in with a yes vote - democratically voting to break the union with England. This is not a new accession country, and there are no treaties to cover such a situation. Many suspect both Scotland and the remaining UK will both need to negotiate ongoing terms. You think the UK with a heavily cut land mass resources and (less so) population will get away with staying on the same basis as now? One of the negotiations between UK and Scotland after independence will be about combined UK and Scottish stance on EU ...

2) you cant be forced to join the EURO against your will. Thats absurd. There is a general acceptance in the treaties that a new accession country (see point 1) will join the EURO at some undefined point in the future, but no way to force it. To even be considered you have to meet certain requirements, and one is being in ERMII for a certain amount of time, and that itself is optional. It's another scare story.

[mistermack]

There's an interesting perspective difference here though. Many Scots - unionist and pro independence - had this odd assumption that the currency we had all built up, underwritten, and funded with out taxes, was our currency. I wonder if people in England can comprehend how annoying it would be to be told that England did not have any right to use Sterling, based on choosing an English Parliament to make decisions. Think about that.

It is. Scotland is also part of the UK. There will be a new UK, and a new Sterling, if Scotland leaves.
Scotland has no rights at all over the new UK, or it's currency.
Are you trying to argue that Scotland has some sort of rights?

It's like a divorced spouse, claiming the right to keep a joint bank account.
No chance, dearie.

[Clinton Huxley]

Despite the Scotch Fundamentalist wishful thinking, the "remaining" UK, ie, overwhelmingly the majority of the current UK, economically or demographically, will be the successor state of the "old" UK. Scotland will be a new state and will have to start accession negotiations with the EU.

It does amuse me. The SNP seem to have been operating under the delusion that everyone else will just roll over and play softball with the SNP and give it everything it wants because, by some weird miracle, literally EVERYTHING an "independent" Scotland wants will be overwhelmingly in the interest of everyone else. Well, maybe in some universe but not in this one.

Not that it matters, because the Scotch Fundamentalists ain't going to win the referendum. Not this time anyway.

As the original OP article indicates, the utterly pathetic SNP responses to recent challenges show that they know they aren't going to win.

[Svartalf]

Sad as that makes me, I fear Lord Hux is right there, Scotland won't be at once a full EU member, like nothing had happened, and given how the governance at 28 is, I doubt we'll take a 29th at once, even if it fully qualify otherwise... and the New Scotland WILL be fast tracked into the Euro system if and when admitted as a full member, because if it wants to play UK, it will be denied membership plain and simple... at best the negociations for admission will go the Turkish way... remember, existing members can veto a new guy... so it's play nice of play out.

assuming, of course that SSNP wins the referendum...

[DaveDodo007]

A yes vote means Scotland is out of the Sterling zone as that has been made clear. Salmond wants an independent Scotland to be part of the Euro (or how else is Scotland going to be allow to join the EU) though he can't say this out loud because it will scare off the 'don't knows.'

The EURO may be a long term possibility, and Salmond (like the Libdems up to and including their 2010 manifesto) supported EURO in the past. Before it's problems.

But there is no plan to join the EURO, and contrary to the political bullshit from the anti independence parties & a compliant media, there is no way to force Scotland to join the EURO even if we had to join EU as a brand new accession member (which we wont, as we arent an accession country, we are already in EU with full compliance).

1) there is nothing at all in the treaties which even mention the situation Scotland is in with a yes vote - democratically voting to break the union with England. This is not a new accession country, and there are no treaties to cover such a situation. Many suspect both Scotland and the remaining UK will both need to negotiate ongoing terms. You think the UK with a heavily cut land mass resources and (less so) population will get away with staying on the same basis as now? One of the negotiations between UK and Scotland after independence will be about combined UK and Scottish stance on EU ...

2) you cant be forced to join the EURO against your will. Thats absurd. There is a general acceptance in the treaties that a new accession country (see point 1) will join the EURO at some undefined point in the future, but no way to force it. To even be considered you have to meet certain requirements, and one is being in ERMII for a certain amount of time, and that itself is optional. It's another scare story.

First let me say as an Englishman I want Scotland to vote yes, unlike the Chinese insult I like to live in interesting times. Second anybody who can avoid the tories ruling over them should go for it. Now we have the land of the unicorns out of the way lets face reality. Once you leave the union you are out of the Sterling zone. There is nothing you have to make the bank of England change their minds. Also starting on your independent path will involve defaulting on your share of the UK debt (150 billion at the last estimate.) You are out of sterling through spite or economic sense then who the fuck is going to bankroll you after you have defaulted on 150 billion debt. Your currency is dead to the world and the rUK isn't going to help you. You have to join the euro even to be in with a chance of joining the EU. Even if you are not blocked by current EU members (good luck with that) there is still a time lag and do you really want to bail out Spain, Greece etc. So lets look at your main assets north sea oil and gas, that's what 7 trillion pounds(?) Which would keep a sable long live country of Scotland size going for three decades or more. A new independent country you will be lucky to get a decade out of it. I hope you do vote for independence but expect a shit storm to be following on.

[surreptitious57]

First let me say as an Englishman I want Scotland to vote yes

Let me say as an Englishman that it is none of our business how they vote

Once they do then we can debate it but until then one says nothing at all

We let them make up their own mind which they can without help from us

I know you are just referencing an opinion but my opinion is not to have one

[DaveDodo007]

First let me say as an Englishman I want Scotland to vote yes

Let me say as an Englishman that it is none of our business how they vote

Once they do then we can debate it but until then one says nothing at all

We let them make up their own mind which they can without help from us

I know you are just referencing an opinion but my opinion is not to have one

Nah I will have a opinion on it whether they like it or not. They are our skirt wearing pussy slaves after all. They will do anything for a fried battered mars bar and should bow down to their English masters. I mean really how much longer do we have to put up with Mel Gibson won the battle of Hadrain's wall. Alexander Graham dong invented the mobile phone and yogi bear invented the goggle( lunch) box. Seriously they are the missing link and have always been the embarrassment to the glorious British Empire. Why we have put up with them for so long beats me, though we English have always been kind to animals even those with funny accents. Anybody who considers haggis as a food is beyond help and the less said about bagpipes the better. At least the ginger haired and freckle face knobs should remove themselves from the gene pool for the good of humanity. This will now come about because we don't need cannon fodder in the new world order. It is for the best that the midge bitten knobs fuck off over the border.

P.S. if this doesn't get them voting yes then I am at a loss.

[Audley Strange]

DaveDodo007 writes for The Guardian and is one of the main voices of the "Better Together" campaign.

[Rum]

I say let them go and bless them. I live five miles from Hadrian's wall and I am buying up concession rights as we speak. Border controls = opportunity!

[ronmcd]

Despite the Scotch Fundamentalist wishful thinking, the "remaining" UK, ie, overwhelmingly the majority of the current UK, economically or demographically, will be the successor state of the "old" UK. Scotland will be a new state and will have to start accession negotiations with the EU.

Thing is, if UK is the sole successor state, and Scotland a brand new state with none of the international liabilities and assets of a successor state ...... we will have no debts.

If a continuing UK keeps the assets, both physical and international, they keep the liabilities.


edit: there's a very good reason the Scottish govt and others think this is all bluster, and after the vote calm negotiations will take place.

[ronmcd]

First let me say as an Englishman I want Scotland to vote yes, unlike the Chinese insult I like to live in interesting times. Second anybody who can avoid the tories ruling over them should go for it. Now we have the land of the unicorns out of the way lets face reality. Once you leave the union you are out of the Sterling zone. There is nothing you have to make the bank of England change their minds. Also starting on your independent path will involve defaulting on your share of the UK debt (150 billion at the last estimate.) You are out of sterling through spite or economic sense then who the fuck is going to bankroll you after you have defaulted on 150 billion debt. Your currency is dead to the world and the rUK isn't going to help you. You have to join the euro even to be in with a chance of joining the EU. Even if you are not blocked by current EU members (good luck with that) there is still a time lag and do you really want to bail out Spain, Greece etc. So lets look at your main assets north sea oil and gas, that's what 7 trillion pounds(?) Which would keep a sable long live country of Scotland size going for three decades or more. A new independent country you will be lucky to get a decade out of it. I hope you do vote for independence but expect a shit storm to be following on.

A better summary of 'too wee too poor too stupid' I couldn't imagine.

Thank the lord we have westminister to shield us from the brutality of the real world.

[Clinton Huxley]

Wee Eck's flim-flam about walking away from a share of national debt if Indy Scotland is not allowed to use Sterling demonstrates that he is no statesman. Such a course will, as Dave notes above, look like a default to international investors. They won't touch Scotland with a barge pole and it'll end up a basket case like Argentina. The SNP act as if rUK will have no cards to play. They are selling the Scots a pup.
The people of England may never have spoken yet but you'll hear 'em if the Scotch Fundamentalists try to swindle them.

And anyway, they've started making single malt in England now....

[ronmcd]

Wee Eck's flim-flam about walking away from a share of national debt if Indy Scotland is not allowed to use Sterling demonstrates that he is no statesman. Such a course will, as Dave notes above, look like a default to international investors.

Who is flim-flamming? Salmond and the Scottish government (and the YES campaign) have said Scotland WILL accept our share of the debts of the UK. Because there will be a splitting of assets and liabilities on independence.

If Scotland is refused a share of the (edit)assets, which will never happen, Scotland simply wouldn't be *expected* to accept a share of the debts.

The threat isn't from Scotland ...

[ronmcd]

Scotch Fundamentalists

With all due respect to the forums rules, you are an idiot.

[Rum]

No - he always has a tongue ever so slightly in his cheek..