California Taxpayer Protection Act of 2012

[Seth]

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

I did. And I spoke broken English and did it all myself, no help from my parents. I learned how to drive on one of those old Lincoln Towncars (my father's car) that was as long as a bus. I also started working part time at a bakery at 14 and helped my parents with household expenses and had my own pocket money.

As I posted elsewhere Kiki, not all people have the ability to pull themselves up by their bootstraps like you did - it's just a sad fact. And I would say that in the case of most Mexican immigrants, which in California is mostly who we are referring to, it's not laziness that prevents them from doing so, it's fear.

I volunteer for Sunday Friends. I have a lot of contact with illegal, Mexican immigrants. We help them to do exactly what we are discussing here...assimilate them to become legal. One of the first steps is to get them in the tax system. Yes, that's actually one of the ways....they start to pay taxes on income they earned without legal status (obviously not on illegal activity). We can't assist all these families fast enough...they are eager to do what they can to become legal, even if it means they don't get to reap the benefits that paying taxes provide until they get a green card.

You mean eager to do everything they can to become legal AFTER they have violated the law by coming here illegally. If they were eager to become legal, they would stay in their own country and apply from there in accordance with our laws, not violate our laws as their very first act of trying to become a citizen here.

Then, the next step is getting the local congressperson involved to help. It takes time, and resources and so far all they get in the form of assistance is the help that organizations like Sunday Friends can provide.

Maybe it's my personal contact with these actual immigrants that we are discussing that makes me a bleeding heart liberal, but I do empathize and would rather lend them a helping hand than kick them to the curb.

I'm sure they are very nice people. I know some very nice illegal immigrants too, who have developmentally disabled, autistic children that are costing the state hundreds of thousands of dollars every year to serve because they are US citizens who were born here as "anchor babies" to their illegal alien parents. We'll serve those children because they are citizens, but they should never have been citizens because their parents never should have gotten across the border. Our military should have stopped them and deported them before the mother was able to give birth, if it meant putting them on a plane to get her out of US jurisdiction before she delivered.

The United States simply cannot afford to take in all the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" any longer. Sorry, but the Golden Door is closed, and you have to knock and ask for, and receive permission to come to the United States. If you can't, then stay where you are and fight to make your country more like the United States. You can start by getting rid of all the Marxists, by whatever means necessary, and then by adopting your own version of the US Constitution and recreating the American dream wherever you happen to be a citizen. It might take some bloodshed and revolution to make it happen, but that's the price of liberty.

[Coito ergo sum]

[
The United States simply cannot afford to take in all the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" any longer.

If they're yearning to breathe free, we can take them. If they're yearning to suckle on the government tit, then we can't.

[Trinity]

I think it's all to easy to get focussed on the details, when one wants to voice opinions, and to forget the bigger picture. There is great inequality in this world and a constant discordance between those who want a better life for themselves and their families (especially when they see it in the world around them) and those who have more and are afraid that they will lose out by those who might "take" what's "rightfully" theirs. This applies to immigrants and non-immigrants; in this country there is a great divide between the wealthy and the poor and it's not unique.
People wouldn't do desperate things illegally if they felt truly valued as human beings and felt that there was abundance for all. If they thought that whatever shit life dealt them, there would be support, fair treatment and compassion wherever in the world they were, there would be less volatility. Like Mai, I am someone who cares deeply for the right for all humans to live a life without degradation and hunger; to have shelter and community and a sense of purpose. Everyone needs to feel that they are contributing to life but also they need to be valued. I'm not naive enough to believe that there will be a utopian global community in my lifetime or even in my children's, but to want that and not be small-minded and possessive over transient material things is where my heart is.

[Coito ergo sum]

I think it's all to easy to get focussed on the details, when one wants to voice opinions, and to forget the bigger picture. There is great inequality in this world and a constant discordance between those who want a better life for themselves and their families (especially when they see it in the world around them) and those who have more and are afraid that they will lose out by those who might "take" what's "rightfully" theirs. This applies to immigrants and non-immigrants; in this country there is a great divide between the wealthy and the poor and it's not unique.

The divide between the wealthy and the poor is less in the US than in most other countries. We're in the top-tier of countries relative to wealth equality. South of the Rio Grande, things get a bit less equal, to say the least.

People wouldn't do desperate things illegally if they felt truly valued as human beings and felt that there was abundance for all. If they thought that whatever shit life dealt them, there would be support, fair treatment and compassion wherever in the world they were, there would be less volatility. Like Mai, I am someone who cares deeply for the right for all humans to live a life without degradation and hunger; to have shelter and community and a sense of purpose. Everyone needs to feel that they are contributing to life but also they need to be valued. I'm not naive enough to believe that there will be a utopian global community in my lifetime or even in my children's, but to want that and not be small-minded and possessive over transient material things is where my heart is.

Fair enough, but how much more do you think the US needs to do to be doing its "fair share?"

1 in 5 of all the world's immigrants, immigrates to the US. 12.5% of the American population, right now, was born in some other country. Name me one country that comes close to that.

The US has 4.5% of the world's population and assimilates 20% of the world's immigrants. That is more than 4 times its proportion to the total world population.

1,000,0000 new permanent residents each year. 750,000 new citizens each year. About 60 million non-immigrant foreign nationals coming to the US every year.

Will your sense of longing for "fair treatment and compassion" only be satiated when the US has nothing left to give? Must we assimilate 30% of the world's immigrants? 50%? If 20% is not enough, then how many more must the US take?

Must we admit 2,000,000 new permanent residents every year? If 1,000,000 is not enough, how many is enough?

[Trinity]

In the short term, I don't think there is any easy answer and I know that there are many many people out there busting a gut to try and find a balance but also many who are working against that. It is a global shift of awareness that's needed and like I said, that's not coming any time soon. I'm not copping out, but I get frustrated when I think that all of the energy and output that each country individually musters could be incredibly effective if it was pooled and a more world-wide inclusive solution or plan of action devised

[maiforpeace]

If fear is one of the reasons why illegal immigrants don't take the steps to make themselves legal, then a law such as this will only exacerbate such a fear. That's another big reason why I think it's garbage.

Then, there is the issue of blended families...that is, one child is illegal and another is not, simply by virtue of where they were born. Yes, it's the parent's fault... but who pays? The children.

If the United States can afford to give tax cuts to the rich, and pay the exorbinant amount of money it pays into defense spending, it can afford to pay for these illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants, I might add, that cook, clean, garden, and harvest the food for those same rich people.

[PsychoSerenity]

The divide between the wealthy and the poor is less in the US than in most other countries. We're in the top-tier of countries relative to wealth equality.

Um.. where did you get that from?

[kiki5711]

We had to go through proper channels to immigrate because we couldn't just run accross the border or take the boat. We also came from poor background so I understand the reality of it. I don't think even if we could go illegaly that my father would want to take that chance only to suffer more once being here, worrying all the time about job security and us kids being able to get medical care and schooling.

The reason Mexicans are "resented" for doing this is because they take that chance and live with it here, and in every household that I've seen, there's at least one or two 5 yr olds. What that shows to me that they calculate to have the kids here and make it harder for them to be sent back.

Legal immigration should apply to everyone equally.

It does take a great burden on hospitals who have treat sick illegal immigrants and get stuck witht he bill. One Mexican man was diagnosed with kidney failure, this was in Arizona, had to be placed on dialisis which cost the hospital thousands of dollars. He didn't pay a penny since he had no money.

My daughter, who was born here has a hard time getting medical insurance and she's not poor enough to get it for free. So, she goes without until she can afford it. However, if she was an illegal immigrant, she could go to emergency and could not be refused even if it was just for a bad flu which is what many of them do and emergency service costs thousands of dollars which again they don't pay, but somebody has to otherwise the hospitals would go broke.

[laklak]

I don't see any problems with the proposed law(s). Mrs. Lak is a legal immigrant, it took a LOT of work and a LOT of time and a LOT of money to get her in here on a work visa. Would have been one hell of a lot simpler if she'd just married me to start with, but she wanted to get in on her own, she never wanted anyone to say "she married him for the green card". Probably brought on by my ex accusing her of that. Citizenship will be a doddle - fill in the form, send in the money, get a passport. If we can do it legally then other people can too.

"Anchor kids" do exist, but having one is no guarantee you get to stay here. USCIS can and does deport the parents of anchor children - the kids can be placed with (legal) relatives or they can go with the parents. Once they're old enough they can come back, legally.

Why should we, as the number one immigration destination in the world do even MORE than we do already? Interestingly, the number two country is Russia. Who would have thought? Here's the top ten - USA, Russia, Germany, Ukraine, France, Saudi Arabia, Canada, India, UK, Spain. The U.S. takes over THREE times the annual number of immigrants as the next country on the list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... on_in_2005 Mind you, these are '05 figures.

What do we have to apologize for? I get really tired of this constant, knee-jerk bashing of the USA. We're doing more for world immigration than the next FOUR countries on the list combined. Want to take care of all the huddled masses, yearning to be free? Talk to YOUR governments, and get them to take in a few more immigrants.

[Seabass]

I don't see any problems with the proposed law(s). Mrs. Lak is a legal immigrant, it took a LOT of work and a LOT of time and a LOT of money to get her in here on a work visa. Would have been one hell of a lot simpler if she'd just married me to start with, but she wanted to get in on her own, she never wanted anyone to say "she married him for the green card". Probably brought on by my ex accusing her of that. Citizenship will be a doddle - fill in the form, send in the money, get a passport. If we can do it legally then other people can too.

"Anchor kids" do exist, but having one is no guarantee you get to stay here. USCIS can and does deport the parents of anchor children - the kids can be placed with (legal) relatives or they can go with the parents. Once they're old enough they can come back, legally.

Why should we, as the number one immigration destination in the world do even MORE than we do already? Interestingly, the number two country is Russia. Who would have thought? Here's the top ten - USA, Russia, Germany, Ukraine, France, Saudi Arabia, Canada, India, UK, Spain. The U.S. takes over THREE times the annual number of immigrants as the next country on the list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... on_in_2005 Mind you, these are '05 figures.

What do we have to apologize for? I get really tired of this constant, knee-jerk bashing of the USA. We're doing more for world immigration than the next FOUR countries on the list combined. Want to take care of all the huddled masses, yearning to be free? Talk to YOUR governments, and get them to take in a few more immigrants.

Bah! You and your bloody facts.

Americans hate immigrants and foreigners; stick to the narrative, man!

[maiforpeace]

Laklak, I'm a citizen, I reserve the right to bash my own country, thank you very much.

Besides, I'm not bashing my country...I'm bashing this act that will be going on the ballot this November if it gets enough signatures...which I fear it will.

I better mobilize and go find out what I can do to help defeat it.

[Seth]

I think it's all to easy to get focussed on the details, when one wants to voice opinions, and to forget the bigger picture. There is great inequality in this world and a constant discordance between those who want a better life for themselves and their families (especially when they see it in the world around them) and those who have more and are afraid that they will lose out by those who might "take" what's "rightfully" theirs. This applies to immigrants and non-immigrants; in this country there is a great divide between the wealthy and the poor and it's not unique.
People wouldn't do desperate things illegally if they felt truly valued as human beings and felt that there was abundance for all. If they thought that whatever shit life dealt them, there would be support, fair treatment and compassion wherever in the world they were, there would be less volatility.

True enough, but how does that justify someone who feels unfairly treated in their own country abandoning it, and all the other people there, to flee to the United States. What is the moral justification for allowing all your fellow citizens in your homeland to be even more oppressed and even more unfairly treated as the cowards who think only of themselves rather than of each other and the nation, abandon their homeland to seek comfort in a place where millions have died to secure the liberties that citizens enjoyed. What they should be doing is what the Egyptians did, which is to stay in Egypt and fight to make their country more like the US, with greater freedom, less oppressive government and greater prosperity.

Like Mai, I am someone who cares deeply for the right for all humans to live a life without degradation and hunger; to have shelter and community and a sense of purpose. Everyone needs to feel that they are contributing to life but also they need to be valued. I'm not naive enough to believe that there will be a utopian global community in my lifetime or even in my children's, but to want that and not be small-minded and possessive over transient material things is where my heart is.

That's all wonderful, and I encourage you to follow your heart and your ethics to the places where people aren't being degraded and work with the inhabitants of those countries to make their nations more prosperous and free.

But their inhabitants are not welcome here just because they haven't the courage to fight for equality, justice and morality from their own governments. The United States is not a refuge for all the moral cowards of the world who cannot bring themselves to stand up and fight like our forefathers have done many times to keep America free and strong.

They need to stay in their own countries and improve their lives THERE, not flee to the US. Go help them do so THERE, don't invite or facilitate their illegal entry into the United States, because no matter how desperate their condition, they have no right to be here. They need to fix their own countries.

[laklak]

I still haven't seen a rational, reasonable explanation of why this is such a horrible thing. It doesn't change any immigration laws, those are on a Federal level. It doesn't establish any sort of Gestapo-like police agency, or take away anyone's Constitutional rights or protections, it doesn't put illegal immigrants in any more jeopardy than they already are. So what is it that is so objectionable?

Mai, do you honestly think that U.S. taxpayers should have to pay for medical, educational and living expenses for people in the country illegally? How can you justify that? I have no problem if you want to contribute your money to that cause, I'm sure there are plenty of private charities already in existence that help illegals, but what gives you (or anyone else) the right to tell other people they have to pay for it? Hell, we aren't taking care of our own citizens, we don't have the spare cash lying around to take care of a few million illegals.

I'd love to see open borders and the free movement of people and capital across them. Hell, it's a part of the Libertarian Party platform. But it's unworkable unless it's reciprocal. I have no problem with Mexicans coming here and working, as long as I have a right to move to Mexico. Beer and property are cheaper there, I could live one hell of a lot better down there than I do in Florida.

[PsychoSerenity]

Fair enough, but how much more do you think the US needs to do to be doing its "fair share?"

1 in 5 of all the world's immigrants, immigrates to the US. 12.5% of the American population, right now, was born in some other country. Name me one country that comes close to that.

Quite a few are close to that, many are more. The in the UK there is a 11.3% foreign-born population. Spain 14.0%, Canada 18.76%. But the Vatican City wins this one, with 100% immigrant population.

The US has 4.5% of the world's population and assimilates 20% of the world's immigrants. That is more than 4 times its proportion to the total world population.

The US is a huge country with vast areas of fertile land, and its relatively small population consumes about 20% of the earth's resources. That is more than 4 times its proportion to the total world population. So I'd say the US is doing just about it's fair share in terms of immigration, but it's nothing special.

[maiforpeace]

I still haven't seen a rational, reasonable explanation of why this is such a horrible thing. It doesn't change any immigration laws, those are on a Federal level. It doesn't establish any sort of Gestapo-like police agency, or take away anyone's Constitutional rights or protections, it doesn't put illegal immigrants in any more jeopardy than they already are. So what is it that is so objectionable?

Mai, do you honestly think that U.S. taxpayers should have to pay for medical, educational and living expenses for people in the country illegally? How can you justify that? I have no problem if you want to contribute your money to that cause, I'm sure there are plenty of private charities already in existence that help illegals, but what gives you (or anyone else) the right to tell other people they have to pay for it? Hell, we aren't taking care of our own citizens, we don't have the spare cash lying around to take care of a few million illegals.

I'd love to see open borders and the free movement of people and capital across them. Hell, it's a part of the Libertarian Party platform. But it's unworkable unless it's reciprocal. I have no problem with Mexicans coming here and working, as long as I have a right to move to Mexico. Beer and property are cheaper there, I could live one hell of a lot better down there than I do in Florida.

Why should I have to pay for schools? I don't have any children. Why should I have to pay for the resources that will be used to enforce this law?

You think taking someone into police custody and turning them over to a federal agency, who in turn has to process the extradition, paperwork, and go through the necessary legal channels to oust these people, who many of will probably be held for unnecessary lengths of time isn't going to cost?

I have a friend who works with illegal immigrants held in detention - she shared some pretty awful statistics with me about what goes on there, it's no less civilized or humane than how we treat the prisoners of Guantanamo. Let me get back to you with those stats.

Also, just because it's worse in some other countries still doesn't make it right...I think I should hold the US to the best standards of humane and dignified treatment, not the worst ones.