Hippie stunned that laws aren't just for other people.

[Warren Dew]

I still don't see how those laws (besides trespassing and fraud - yes that's fair enough) apply to a small operation lead by one person.

So pass a law exempting one person operations from taxes.

It would thrill me not to be taxed.

[Coito ergo sum]

I've often wondered - what laws might I accidentally break simply by not being aware of them? - Because nobody's ever directly taught me anything about any laws. I just go about assuming I'm doing the right thing. And I know law in general tends to be pretty complicated or it wouldn't take so many years to become a lawyer. Also, I never signed any contract to agree to any laws in the first place - ok I understand that's not really necessary since I've got little choice but to live in the society I grew up in - but they could at least do me the courtesy of telling me what laws I'm supposed to abide by.

If you live in a town, the city ordinances are at city hall, and usually nowadays available on the internet. If you live in a State, then the laws of every state are available online nowadays, too, as are federal laws. But, mainly, the complex issues come up when you gent into a particular business - the onus is on you, if you want to sell shoes or clothes to find out what you need to do and what you need to abide by. Nobody is going to hold your hand and tell you to remit sales tax to the state, for example. They'll just audit you and fine the fuck out of you, and you'll not make that mistake again.

But, ultimately, this is what the "decrease the regulatory burden" folks are talking about. When you run a business, it can get damn complicated. And, the more complex the laws are, the more time and money a business owner has to spend navigating them, and the more risk he exposes himself (or she herself) in the process. These things discourage people from getting into a line of business - they are called "barriers to entry." And, the more such barriers are erected, the harder it is for the little guy to break into the market. That's why, often, the do-gooders are shooting their effort in the foot by pushing for tighter and more complex regulations - the big fellas - the entrenched large players in a line of business - they don't mind some added costs of entry to get into the market and they can float the costs a lot easier. The little guy, doing business on a shoestring, is the guy that gets fucked.

These farmer folks are getting that lesson good and hard. $2,500 fees kill us business owners - and all the piddling fees and larger fees add up, and all the red tape and filings and remittances and taxes and the like take away our ability to actually do the work we're trying to do.

[Warren Dew]

Most food in the supermarket is fine. And, getting stuff straight from a farm doesn't necessarily make it better. The FDA has done approximately nothing to improve safety when it comes to food, and certainly nothing when it comes to improving quality. The FDA does a fair job when it comes to pharmaceuticals and medical devices, fair.

I would point out that the USDA cattle and beef tracking system has greatly reduced the size of salmonella outbreaks, to the point where meat related outbreaks, which used to be the major ones, are now less important that the vegetable outbreaks. And now they're introducing produce tracking and farm inspection too, which should help with the vegetables.

Of course, that just supports the point that this woman should be expected to comply with applicable regulations - and that regulations that are overly restrictive should be dropped - for everyone, not just for her.

[Svartalf]

Such a hostile reaction to something so minor. Honestly, 'a selfish bitch'?

I was being ironical. That should have been evident from the tone. Being called selfish, etc., is what business people get called by many on the left. Shouldn't this woman "pay her fair share?" After all, she's running a business - she's one of "the corporations" now...

That has to be one of the dumbest quotes I've read on this forum. She's a corporation. Yah...holy shit man

Actually, when she set herself up to sell her extra produce, she did become a one woman (dog forbid she has more help) agricorp

[Gonzo]

It is a single human selling vegetables at a stand. It isn't a legitimate functioning business operation. I don't think anyone selling vegetables (legally and on their own property, mind you) should be taxed or have to be licensed to do so. Again it is such a non-issue it really doesn't effect anyone besides her and her customers (who have the right not to buy from her). Do we need to put a warning label on everything?

[Coito ergo sum]

Most food in the supermarket is fine. And, getting stuff straight from a farm doesn't necessarily make it better. The FDA has done approximately nothing to improve safety when it comes to food, and certainly nothing when it comes to improving quality. The FDA does a fair job when it comes to pharmaceuticals and medical devices, fair.

I would point out that the USDA cattle and beef tracking system has greatly reduced the size of salmonella outbreaks, to the point where meat related outbreaks, which used to be the major ones, are now less important that the vegetable outbreaks. And now they're introducing produce tracking and farm inspection too, which should help with the vegetables.

Of course, that just supports the point that this woman should be expected to comply with applicable regulations - and that regulations that are overly restrictive should be dropped - for everyone, not just for her.

agreed as to USDA - different agency than the FDA, of course - and the USDA has much more sweeping powers and 10 times as many employees - and the measures you described are effective.

[Seth]

I've often wondered - what laws might I accidentally break simply by not being aware of them? - Because nobody's ever directly taught me anything about any laws. I just go about assuming I'm doing the right thing. And I know law in general tends to be pretty complicated or it wouldn't take so many years to become a lawyer. Also, I never signed any contract to agree to any laws in the first place - ok I understand that's not really necessary since I've got little choice but to live in the society I grew up in - but they could at least do me the courtesy of telling me what laws I'm supposed to abide by.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Factually however, nobody anywhere can go through a single day ever without breaking some law. There's just too many of them to begin to keep track of. Which is why civil control of the police and courts is so vitally important to individual liberty. We control how rigorously the laws are enforced by closing the purse strings and denying the government the money with which to hire enforcers.

Well, if we had an actual representative democracy (that is, in America) instead of a Congress half-full (or is it half-empty) of millionaires bought out by corporate interests. Time to take the power back from the filthy rich.

Er, not to put too fine a point on it, but the laws involved are mostly local municipal ordinances, and while I have no love for the Board of Supervisors in San Francisco, I doubt it's comprise of the "filthy rich."

[Gonzo]

Yes, they are state laws I shouldn't have conflated the two like that. I still think the pro-corporate legislature on a national scale feeds the idea that small operations like this breaking regulation are somehow profane while the free market/'invisible hand' capitalists turn their heads from the crimes of the rich to demonize the middle class and poor.

[maiforpeace]

Most food in the supermarket is fine. And, getting stuff straight from a farm doesn't necessarily make it better.

Not true when it comes to food safety - food from small farms is safer. On the most part small farms are more likely to raise produce and meat naturally and/or organically, and if they were ever to have an outbreak, they have much more control over dealing with it, unlike the factory farm - remember the recent outbreaks with the spinach and the eggs? They came from factory farms.

Organic Chicken Has Less Salmonella Than Conventional Chicken, Study Says

[Seth]

These farmer folks are getting that lesson good and hard. $2,500 fees kill us business owners - and all the piddling fees and larger fees add up, and all the red tape and filings and remittances and taxes and the like take away our ability to actually do the work we're trying to do.

Yup. Ask any REAL farmer what it takes to be in business. I've got no sympathy for these poseurs at all.

I'm a "one-man" farming operation and have been for more than 40 years and the paper work is a complete pain in the ass, and getting worse. The feds now want me to buy and insert RFID chips in EVERY cow, pig and chicken and to keep complex, accurate computerized records of every single animal I raise, all at my expense, just so that they can, ostensibly, track where an individual mad cow came from. Yeah, right, like I'm going to incriminate myself.

Fuck 'em. Not going to do it. I'll sell the cows and sow the ground with plutonium from the Japanese power plants first. I'm tired of the hassle and the paltry return on investment of my time, so I'm selling the ranch and I'm cashing out, and the developer that's buying it can build all the houses he wants on the place and fuck the community and their desire for open space, much less their desire for "organic" locally grown produce.

I'll get my compensation for long-term real estate investment instead and screw the socialists who think I owe them something.

And I'm going to take my big old wad of cash and put it in a bank vault where it doesn't earn any interest and nobody knows I have it and retire, and never pay another fucking dime in income tax for the rest of my life.

Fuck the dependent class, I've carried them for too long, so I'm done.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Next we'll be arguing about the time.

[epepke]

Increasingly officious local regulations have all but killed off the local produce stands that once made life in Florida so delightful. Clearly, there should be licensing and inspection, but the cost should be proportional to what is being done.

I disagree that it is trivial. Eating is important, and if you don't have a lot of money, those little vendors become important for getting proper nutrition at low cost.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Read "Our Fair City" by R.A.H.

[Seth]

Increasingly officious local regulations have all but killed off the local produce stands that once made life in Florida so delightful. Clearly, there should be licensing and inspection, but the cost should be proportional to what is being done.

I disagree that it is trivial. Eating is important, and if you don't have a lot of money, those little vendors become important for getting proper nutrition at low cost.

As a Libertarian, I agree. I was merely pointing out the rank hypocrisy of a dependent-class "hippie" who was stealing what didn't belong to her complaining about overregulation in a state that is dedicated to overregulation as a fundamental precept of liberal democrat/progressive politics.

[hadespussercats]

She's clearly not making a profit.

Exactly, so why can't she just sell it out the back door?

Farmers in rural areas do it all the time. They have some chickens, they sell a few eggs out the back door. Farmworkers here in Watsonville clean up the rejected produce after a corporate harvest and sell it on the street. She spends 25 hours a week working there, and earns $2500 a year? Before expenses? That's not a business, that's a labor of love. Frankly, I think the city is making a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be.

CES, I can't believe you would whine and cry about this one little gardener in Oakland.

I take that back, I can believe it.

Well, all I was getting at (since I don't have a problem with the basic idea behind her farm) is that there are legal ways to get around the fees and such she's trying to avoid. Register as a charity, give the produce away, take charitable donations to support the work, take a deduction for what you give away.

Also, if you live in a city and you're running a farm, it's reasonable to think you're going to attract attention. The rural farmers selling out the back door are bending rules, too-- but since they live far from supervision they're not hassled. That's how it goes, sometimes.