Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74225
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:46 am

tattuchu wrote:Did you give her a hug, Rum, or would that have been too awkward? :(
A vastly more important post than all the political hoo-haa...

The people Rum works with are all involved in trying to help people in trouble. Perhaps the social mechanisms for helping got a little overblown for more stringent times, or perhaps that is just a perception of bean counters, it matters not...

Rum was talking about the human face of the problem...

Sometimes, I think that ecomomic conservatives see themselves as a member of a non-social species, like intelligent tigers, snarling their independence and freedom at each other...

We are hominids, we are tribal, we care for each other, even if the cold equations of economic rationalism are giving good advice for selfish, solitary predators...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Atheist-Lite
Formerly known as Crumple
Posts: 8745
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:35 pm
About me: You need a jetpack? Here, take mine. I don't need a jetpack this far away.
Location: In the Galactic Hub, Yes That One !!!
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Atheist-Lite » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:51 am

JimC wrote:
tattuchu wrote:Did you give her a hug, Rum, or would that have been too awkward? :(
A vastly more important post than all the political hoo-haa...

The people Rum works with are all involved in trying to help people in trouble. Perhaps the social mechanisms for helping got a little overblown for more stringent times, or perhaps that is just a perception of bean counters, it matters not...

Rum was talking about the human face of the problem...

Sometimes, I think that ecomomic conservatives see themselves as a member of a non-social species, like intelligent tigers, snarling their independence and freedom at each other...

We are hominids, we are tribal, we care for each other, even if the cold equations of economic rationalism are giving good advice for selfish, solitary predators...
I did read somewhere that 20% of the UK population could be classed as sociopaths, thinks bank clerk putting a cat in the bin. The clever ones don't have a criminal record and are 'successful' in their own way. :smoke:
nxnxm,cm,m,fvmf,vndfnm,nm,f,dvm,v v vmfm,vvm,d,dd vv sm,mvd,fmf,fn ,v fvfm,

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:17 am

Rum wrote:Socialism is ultimately about compassion, even if in pratical terms it would struggle to provide the evidence. The model that 'new labour' came up with was based on the idea that if you encourage capitalist style growth it will generate the taxes you need to maintain a humane society.

This may or may not have been valid, but it was not this model that collapsed. As mentioned earlier, what collapsed was the owners of the capital getting too greedy and inventing invisible and non-existant security on which to earn their own rake offs.
By "owners of capital", I take it you mean "owners of the houses they live in"? Because just as in the U.S., in the UK the underlying cause of the financial collapse was the housing bubble.

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:26 am

MarkS wrote:Seth, surely the bust and preceding boom was caused by government(s) being influenced by, i guess you'd call them "vested interests" to deregulate? I'm afraid i must away to bed now but i'll be back.
In the U.S., the bubble before the current bust was caused directly by Clinton era amendments to the Community Reinvestment Act which ultimately required banks to give home loans to people who would not be able to repay them. This is an excellent example of government interference in free markets causing problems, the type of thing Seth was talking about.

I don't know the details of the UK situation.

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:31 am

JimC wrote:We are hominids, we are tribal, we care for each other, even if the cold equations of economic rationalism are giving good advice for selfish, solitary predators...
It's that same tribal nature that causes us to so easily demonize people who are different from us. We care for others in our "tribe" only because that helps us when we fight those other tribes whose members we deem unfit to live. That kind of irrationality is not the best feature of human nature.

User avatar
Feck
.
.
Posts: 28391
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Feck » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:47 am

I find it typical that some people have jumped in on Rum's story to try and force it to be an afirmation of their own political views . I find it a lot more typical that a Cuntservative Government is using the big business fraud, tax evasion and the general failure of the financial sector to regulate themslves or the demonstrated failure of the idea that 'What's good for the market is good for the country' to inflict their own political views on the population .
:hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog:
Give me the wine , I don't need the bread

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Robert_S » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:34 am

Warren Dew wrote:
MarkS wrote:Seth, surely the bust and preceding boom was caused by government(s) being influenced by, i guess you'd call them "vested interests" to deregulate? I'm afraid i must away to bed now but i'll be back.
In the U.S., the bubble before the current bust was caused directly by Clinton era amendments to the Community Reinvestment Act which ultimately required banks to give home loans to people who would not be able to repay them. This is an excellent example of government interference in free markets causing problems, the type of thing Seth was talking about.

I don't know the details of the UK situation.
I have yet to see a convincing case made for that. And if that act did force banks to make risky loans, it certainly did not force banks to play that securitization game. I'd also like to see where in the Community Reinvestment Act it stipulated that loans were to be made to people without any assets or proof of employment.

IIRC, the Community Reinvestment Act was to make banks loan money in low income neighborhoods. Where I live, there wasn't much of an increase in the price of housing in the hood. There was a great deal of growth in the more affluent areas though. I could rent part of a McMansion pretty cheap if I cared to live in such a sterile environment.

What I do remember from the whole thing was a great number of cheerleaders singing praises the praises of the House of the Rising Market, but somehow unable to understand that it was a form of fucking inflation.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:08 pm

Robert_S wrote:I have yet to see a convincing case made for that. And if that act did force banks to make risky loans, it certainly did not force banks to play that securitization game. I'd also like to see where in the Community Reinvestment Act it stipulated that loans were to be made to people without any assets or proof of employment.
What happened is an excellent illustration of how one piece of legislation ends up distorting the economy far beyond what a naive estimation of the legislation might estimate.

The CRA amendments didn't explicitly require loans without proof of employment, for example. However, when the courts interpreted the CRA as involving quotas - requiring a certain percentage of loans to go to certain segments of the population - it turned out that there simply weren't enough takers in those segments of the population. The banks were faced with a choice between partially shutting down the mortgage market by ceasing to make loans to people who could afford them, or finding ways, such as not checking up on income, to make loans to people who couldn't afford them.

Congress didn't want the mortgage market squeezed, so they inflated it instead. The permitted FNMA ("Fannie Mae") and FHLMC ("Freddie Mac") to purchase "low income" mortgages and mortgage securities that took the loan originators off the hook for the risks of making the loans. This is an example of what Seth characterizes as the government "picking winners". At that point, investment banks and insurance companies also got into the act.

Of course, the government then chose to exacerbate the damage even further by engineering an indirect bailout of the investment banks and foreign governments that ultimately ended up holding most of the mortgage securities. Instead of limiting the damage of the bust largely to investors who made bad buying decisions - either in houses or mortgage securities - the bailout is spreading the damage throughout the economy.
IIRC, the Community Reinvestment Act was to make banks loan money in low income neighborhoods. Where I live, there wasn't much of an increase in the price of housing in the hood. There was a great deal of growth in the more affluent areas though. I could rent part of a McMansion pretty cheap if I cared to live in such a sterile environment.
That was true for the original Carter era CRA. The Clinton era amendments which were the cause of the problem focused on the income of the borrowers rather than the location of the housing. The result was people buying houses in better neighborhoods that they couldn't afford, rather than more home ownership in the slums.

User avatar
Rum
Absent Minded Processor
Posts: 37285
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: South of the border..though not down Mexico way..
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Rum » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:27 pm

tattuchu wrote:Did you give her a hug, Rum, or would that have been too awkward? :(
No I didn't. We were in the main entrance to the supermarket...and we are British sir!

Seriously - I wish I had. I touched her shoulder and wished her all the best.

The OP was not about the politics but about the pain of those on the receiving end of whatever the policies are.

User avatar
Atheist-Lite
Formerly known as Crumple
Posts: 8745
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:35 pm
About me: You need a jetpack? Here, take mine. I don't need a jetpack this far away.
Location: In the Galactic Hub, Yes That One !!!
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Atheist-Lite » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:33 pm

Rum wrote:
tattuchu wrote:Did you give her a hug, Rum, or would that have been too awkward? :(
No I didn't. We were in the main entrance to the supermarket...and we are British sir!

Seriously - I wish I had. I touched her shoulder and wished her all the best.

The OP was not about the politics but about the pain of those on the receiving end of whatever the policies are.
We're British, don't talk about pain. :tup:
nxnxm,cm,m,fvmf,vndfnm,nm,f,dvm,v v vmfm,vvm,d,dd vv sm,mvd,fmf,fn ,v fvfm,

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:54 pm

mistermack wrote:Seth, just to prove you're not a troll, can you say what country is a model for your economic wisdom? There must be one, if it's so wonderful.
Sure, the northern sections of the United States of America, from 1776 to about 1912, absent the unfortunate interlude of the Civil War, when the Progressive cancer took root. There was a sweet spot in the 1920's as well, when Harding and Coolidge were in charge. They cut the size of the federal government in half, got rid of meddlesome regulations and agencies, and the economy boomed. That's why they called it the "Roaring 20's."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Feck
.
.
Posts: 28391
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Feck » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:58 pm

And how did Amerika recover from the Great Depression ? And I see A conservative Coalition tried to stop that .
:hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog:
Give me the wine , I don't need the bread

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:31 pm

Feck wrote:And how did Amerika recover from the Great Depression ? And I see A conservative Coalition tried to stop that .
Wrong. FDR's nitwitted economic policies extended the Great Depression for more than a decade. What brought us out was World War II.

And as soon as FDR kicked the bucket, Congress RUSHED to put term limits on the presidency just to be sure that his sort of totalitarian regime never happened again.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74225
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:32 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
JimC wrote:We are hominids, we are tribal, we care for each other, even if the cold equations of economic rationalism are giving good advice for selfish, solitary predators...
It's that same tribal nature that causes us to so easily demonize people who are different from us. We care for others in our "tribe" only because that helps us when we fight those other tribes whose members we deem unfit to live. That kind of irrationality is not the best feature of human nature.
I agree, but that is what rational thinking and willpower should be used for. We need to be on our guard against the xenophobic side of our tribal nature, but still embrace the compassionate side.
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Small human sufferings and UK government cuts

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:33 pm

JimC wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
JimC wrote:We are hominids, we are tribal, we care for each other, even if the cold equations of economic rationalism are giving good advice for selfish, solitary predators...
It's that same tribal nature that causes us to so easily demonize people who are different from us. We care for others in our "tribe" only because that helps us when we fight those other tribes whose members we deem unfit to live. That kind of irrationality is not the best feature of human nature.
I agree, but that is what rational thinking and willpower should be used for. We need to be on our guard against the xenophobic side of our tribal nature, but still embrace the compassionate side.
It's not necessarily irrational or xenophobic, sometimes it's practical necessity to ensure the survival of the tribe.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Woodbutcher and 24 guests