Is National Socialism really so bad??

[JimC]

If you don't mind trading away liberty for security, it might not be so bad.

It doesn't sound qualitatively different to the UK under Tony Blair.

And, I suppose, by extension, the UK under Cameron today?

As he's changed little for the better, then yes.

Let's not get carried away. Any recent UK government, whatever its faults, was nowhere near the extremes observed in truly fascist regimes of the recent European past...

And they themselves were pussycats compared to any number of vicious autocrats of ealier historical periods...

[Pappa]

If you don't mind trading away liberty for security, it might not be so bad.

It doesn't sound qualitatively different to the UK under Tony Blair.

And, I suppose, by extension, the UK under Cameron today?

As he's changed little for the better, then yes.

Let's not get carried away. Any recent UK government, whatever its faults, was nowhere near the extremes observed in truly fascist regimes of the recent European past...

And they themselves were pussycats compared to any number of vicious autocrats of ealier historical periods...

I wasn't suggesting they were that bad, just that the willingness to ditch our liberty for security isn't qualitatively different. In recent years we've has an entirely innocent man murdered by security services when they erronously identified him as a terrorist, another man shot in a completely erronous terror raid on his house, indefinite detention without trial, extensive stop and search powers granted, anti-terror laws used to harrass and nulify peaceful political protesters, every phone call and Internet request scanned and recorded by GCHQ, etc...

[JimC]

Pappa wrote:

I wasn't suggesting they were that bad, just that the willingness to ditch our liberty for security isn't qualitatively different. In recent years we've has an entirely innocent man murdered by security services when they erronously identified him as a terrorist, another man shot in a completely erronous terror raid on his house, indefinite detention without trial, extensive stop and search powers granted, anti-terror laws used to harrass and nulify peaceful political protesters, every phone call and Internet request scanned and recorded by GCHQ, etc...

And all of those incidents examined and discussed by the press (as they should be), with much well reported protests and criticism. The vast number of incidents with much more horror in the hey-day of European fascism, with no examination by a free press within the countries concerned makes your examples very small beer in comparison...

Really, this is encouraging. The zeitgeist has moved on, as RD remarked; what is a serious breach of human rights now, was a minor, excusable footnote in the past...

[Coito ergo sum]

No matter what Sandy tells you, it's a bad idea.

Yah...because we all know how much the "national socialists" liked the communists. A nazi's worst enemy has always been the communists...americans too, funny how that works out.

Are you a communist now?

[Berthold]

It is an interesting point imagining some form of National Socialism without any nastiness to an ethnic group, and without a tendency to invade one's neighbours.

Kemal Atatürk? Well, nastiness is a bit relative; he claimed that the ethnic minorities were really Turks; not very nice, but nicer than the Nazis were towards several ethnicities. His government was authoritarian.

[laklak]

One of the Brownshirt's prime recruitment pools was the Communist party. Fanatics can change their stripes like most people change underwear. Read Hoffer's "True Believer".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One of the Brownshirt's prime recruitment pools was the Communist party. Fanatics can change their stripes like most people change underwear. Read Hoffer's "True Believer".

Amusing considering the Communist Party was never outlawed in Nazi Germany. They just rounded them all up and put them in Dachau. Quickly, clean and efficient. I wonder how much of their information came from former party members.

[laklak]

I only joined the Party for business reasons. I didn't know what was happening at Auschwitz, I thought they were making camera lenses. And I was just following orders anyway.

[devogue]

Amusing considering the Communist Party was never outlawed in Nazi Germany.

Didn't they outlaw all other parties in July 1933?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I only joined the Party for business reasons. I didn't know what was happening at Auschwitz, I thought they were making camera lenses. And I was just following orders anyway.

I know nuffink! Nuffink!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Amusing considering the Communist Party was never outlawed in Nazi Germany.

Didn't they outlaw all other parties in July 1933?

Are you trying to muck this thread up with facts?

[laklak]

We have ways of extracting information, Herr Devogue, best you cooperate willilngly.

[Hermit]

Amusing considering the Communist Party was never outlawed in Nazi Germany.

The Communist Party was banned on on March 1, 1933, a couple of days after the Reichstag Fire and three weeks before the Enabling Act. The Social Democratic Party was banned in June 1933, and on 14 July 1933 Hitler banned all parties except the Nazi party. Martin Niemöller's admonition is quite apt.

[sandinista]

One of the Brownshirt's prime recruitment pools was the Communist party. Fanatics can change their stripes like most people change underwear. Read Hoffer's "True Believer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

Hoffer does not take an exclusively negative view of "true believers" and the mass movements they begin. Examples he gives of positive true believers are Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi.

Lincoln and Ghandi good, commies bad... Sounds like a good non-biased book...think I'll pass.

[JimC]

One of the Brownshirt's prime recruitment pools was the Communist party. Fanatics can change their stripes like most people change underwear. Read Hoffer's "True Believer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

Hoffer does not take an exclusively negative view of "true believers" and the mass movements they begin. Examples he gives of positive true believers are Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi.

Lincoln and Ghandi good, commies bad... Sounds like a good non-biased book...think I'll pass.

The point about true believers, of any political stripe, has been made by multitudes of clear headed commentators, because it can be observed in history over and over again. When allegiance to a political philosophy becomes absolute, many of the features of religious excess are found. This certainly includes viciously turning on members of your group that have dared to deviate a little (ice picks, anyone?)