What would a true communist society/country look like?

[RuleBritannia]

People lived in stateless societies for most of human history. I think the majority of them were sane and I also think most of them would probably prefer it to living under the control of a state. I know I would and I believe myself to be sane.

they were hunter gatherers, and had the "state" necessary at the time - a chieftan and "elders." You want that now?

When someone steals your stuff or hurts a family member, you want the enforcement of the law to be a private matter? You'll just go out there and pop a cap in 'is ass?

Do you favor deregulation? If not, why not?

Just because there's no state doesn't mean there's no government.

[Coito ergo sum]

People lived in stateless societies for most of human history. I think the majority of them were sane and I also think most of them would probably prefer it to living under the control of a state. I know I would and I believe myself to be sane.

they were hunter gatherers, and had the "state" necessary at the time - a chieftan and "elders." You want that now?

When someone steals your stuff or hurts a family member, you want the enforcement of the law to be a private matter? You'll just go out there and pop a cap in 'is ass?

Do you favor deregulation? If not, why not?

Just because there's no state doesn't mean there's no government.

I guess that depends on definitions.

When I use the term "state" it is the body politic as organized for civil rule and government ( distinguished from church) with the state being the operations or activities of a central civil government. I don't think that in the context of Communism the word "state" means "nation" or "city-state", but rather the "operation or activities of the central government" (whether that means a complex republic, or a tribal chief and his henchmen).

I don't see a difference between the "state" in the form of a tribe having a king or chief, and a huge country having a king. They are different forms of the same thing.

How would you distinguish "state" and "government?" (not arguing with you - just trying to be clear on definitions)

[Azathoth]

[Pappa]

People lived in stateless societies for most of human history. I think the majority of them were sane and I also think most of them would probably prefer it to living under the control of a state. I know I would and I believe myself to be sane.

they were hunter gatherers, and had the "state" necessary at the time - a chieftan and "elders." You want that now?

When someone steals your stuff or hurts a family member, you want the enforcement of the law to be a private matter? You'll just go out there and pop a cap in 'is ass?

Do you favor deregulation? If not, why not?

Hunter gatherer elders/leaders didn't weild effective power at all. It was impossible for them to be coersive because any member of their society/group could simply vote with their feet.

Anyway, I wasn't just referring to hunter-gatherers, pastoral and agricultural societies were also stateless.

And yes, I would prefer the freedom over the coercion and control. Humans continually show themselves to be perfectly capable of self-organisation with no need of state interference. I'll never see it happen, but I would like to.

[Coito ergo sum]

People lived in stateless societies for most of human history. I think the majority of them were sane and I also think most of them would probably prefer it to living under the control of a state. I know I would and I believe myself to be sane.

they were hunter gatherers, and had the "state" necessary at the time - a chieftan and "elders." You want that now?

When someone steals your stuff or hurts a family member, you want the enforcement of the law to be a private matter? You'll just go out there and pop a cap in 'is ass?

Do you favor deregulation? If not, why not?

Hunter gatherer elders/leaders didn't weild effective power at all. It was impossible for them to be coersive because any member of their society/group could simply vote with their feet.

A tribal king did coerce? I'm not sure you're familiar with how they ruled back then. And, they couldn't "simply" vote with their feet. Leaving your tribe wasn't generally possible. Other tribes would kill you.

Anyway, I wasn't just referring to hunter-gatherers, pastoral and agricultural societies were also stateless.

And yes, I would prefer the freedom over the coercion and control. Humans continually show themselves to be perfectly capable of self-organisation with no need of state interference. I'll never see it happen, but I would like to.

The state IS "human self-organization." When people self-organize, what they form is a state. There are rules, enforced by whatever mechanisms they can create, and the authorities are the state.

[sandinista]

because you "call" yourself a communist doesn't make it true, same with calling yourself a "democracy" doesn't make it true.

[Pappa]

A tribal king did coerce? I'm not sure you're familiar with how they ruled back then. And, they couldn't "simply" vote with their feet. Leaving your tribe wasn't generally possible. Other tribes would kill you.

Did you just make that up because you assume it must be true?

The state IS "human self-organization." When people self-organize, what they form is a state. There are rules, enforced by whatever mechanisms they can create, and the authorities are the state.

Of course. But the scale of a state makes all practical decision making out of reach for almost everyone. I'm talking about self-organisation on smaller scales.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, whatever - that really isn't what the OP is about anyway. I was trying to get someone's explanation about what a true Communist society would look like. So far, anyone who has been relatively specific in any way has painted what to me is a bleak and undesirable picture.

[LaMont Cranston]

Coito, I've been thinking about your question about what an idealized communist country would look like. I've come to the conclusion that there are certain groups of people who cling to certain utopian-like fantasies that all have to do with the premise "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we could only change human nature and have everything be a different way."

When it comes to communism, it's all about everybody getting an equal share and all the crap that goes with Marxist rhetoric, but, when you ask people for specifics, they cannot come up with them. It's really no different with believers and non-believers. Hardcore believers like to sell the idea that they know that things are a certain way, and either you believe what they believe, or you are totally fucked for all eternity. Atheists have this thing about "wouldn't it be oh-so-wonderful if everybody was as clear-thinking and rational as we are?" Of course, that assumes that those atheists are actually clear-thinking and rational instead of being rigid and limited thinkers.

Communism, what passes for organized religion or rational thought...it the same old whore in a new dress. So it goes...

[RuleBritannia]

Communist societies actually do exist, they're known as communes, people in these places share living space, property, resources and income. They're non-hierarchical and all decisions are made democratically. I've been to two in my time (in Spain and Australia), they seem very peaceful and everyone is happy.

Of cause the only reason these societies work is because everyone there has the same frame of mind and choose to be there, and anyone who doesn't participate can simply be expeld.

[sandinista]

Coito, I've been thinking about your question about what an idealized communist country would look like. I've come to the conclusion that there are certain groups of people who cling to certain utopian-like fantasies that all have to do with the premise "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we could only change human nature and have everything be a different way."

When it comes to communism, it's all about everybody getting an equal share and all the crap that goes with Marxist rhetoric, but, when you ask people for specifics, they cannot come up with them. It's really no different with believers and non-believers. Hardcore believers like to sell the idea that they know that things are a certain way, and either you believe what they believe, or you are totally fucked for all eternity. Atheists have this thing about "wouldn't it be oh-so-wonderful if everybody was as clear-thinking and rational as we are?" Of course, that assumes that those atheists are actually clear-thinking and rational instead of being rigid and limited thinkers.

Communism, what passes for organized religion or rational thought...it the same old whore in a new dress. So it goes...

Not with the communism is like religion horseshit again, or the "human nature" "argument". Communism is nothing like religion, and human nature is not static. Communism is an ideology, as is capitalism, as is liberal democracy. Liberal democracies have as much rhetoric as any other ideology. Communism is, of course in a very simplified way, putting social issues and people over profits.

RuleBritannia

Of cause the only reason these societies work is because everyone there has the same frame of mind and choose to be there, and anyone who doesn't participate can simply be expeld.

The same goes for any society. In a capitalist, liberal democratic society people who choose not to participate are either jailed or rendered homeless. Rules keep the ideology on place. Private property must be respected, taxes must be paid, laws must be followed, goods must be purchased etc.

[Coito ergo sum]

The same goes for any society. In a capitalist, liberal democratic society people who choose not to participate are either jailed or rendered homeless. Rules keep the ideology on place. Private property must be respected, taxes must be paid, laws must be followed, goods must be purchased etc.

That is just plain ludicrous.

One can do whatever one wants in a capitalist society. If you don't want to be a capitalist, be a worker and be paid for your labor. Millions of people do it, and millions do quite well, living comfortable lives, in nice homes, raising children, etc. Nobody needs follow any ideology.

Private property must be respected because it's human nature and no rule will ever change that. If Thag is walking along with his wife Gaggy and his two children, looking for a cave to dwell in, they may run across an empty one. They move in, and start living there. They claim it as their own property. Later, Bog might come along and say that he wants to live there too. Thag and Gaggy may not want him in there, and will exercise their property right by excluding Bog from the cave. It's their cave. That's all property right boil down to. This is my cave, and you can't live here. This is my fish, and you can't take it from me.

Communism takes Thag and Gaggy's cave and fish away, and tells them that all they "need" is the shelter of a tree, or just one corner of the cave (letting Bog come in and invade their home). Communism tells Thag and Gaggy that they have to let their children go to bed a little bit hungry, because Bog wants part of the fish.

[Coito ergo sum]

Communist societies actually do exist, they're known as communes, people in these places share living space, property, resources and income. They're non-hierarchical and all decisions are made democratically. I've been to two in my time (in Spain and Australia), they seem very peaceful and everyone is happy.

Of cause the only reason these societies work is because everyone there has the same frame of mind and choose to be there, and anyone who doesn't participate can simply be expeld.

If communes are considered "true communism" then I know for a 100% certainty that I am four-square opposed to even the truest form of communism.

[sandinista]

The same goes for any society. In a capitalist, liberal democratic society people who choose not to participate are either jailed or rendered homeless. Rules keep the ideology on place. Private property must be respected, taxes must be paid, laws must be followed, goods must be purchased etc.

That is just plain ludicrous.

One can do whatever one wants in a capitalist society. If you don't want to be a capitalist, be a worker and be paid for your labor. Millions of people do it, and millions do quite well, living comfortable lives, in nice homes, raising children, etc. Nobody needs follow any ideology.

haha, like being a worker and being paid isn't taking part in a capitalist society, . No one needs to follow any ideology? THAT is ludicrous. And then more blah blah blah on fucking "human nature".

[Trolldor]

So, what would a true communist country look like?

Much like a true Scotsman.

As far as I'm concerned, communism is a collection of social theories, some of which were put into practice and some of which failed. Others however have carried on to influence our society today.

I think potentially almost any model of society could exist, as long as the upbringing of the people was such that they supported it - so asking what it would look like is irrelevant - What would you like society to look like?

Why base you ideas of what it could look like, on one or another social models that are a hundred years old?

The face of communism: