We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 23, 2017 2:30 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:Flynn is invoking the 5th in response to a Senate request for documents relating to his interactions with Russian officials.

"Flynn Takes The 5th, Refuses To Turn Over Documents To Senate Panel"
Regarding the Senate Intelligence Committee's document request, Flynn's attorney Robert Kelner said, "Producing documents that fall within the subpoena's broad scope would be a testimonial act, insofar as it would confirm or deny the existence of such documents."

The letter to committee chairmen also states that Flynn is "the target on nearly a daily basis of outrageous allegations, often attributed to anonymous sources in Congress or elsewhere in the United States Government, which, however fanciful on their face and unsubstantiated by evidence, feed the escalating public frenzy against him."
As of four days ago, it was reported that Il Douche was saying he wants Flynn back in the White House.
Huh - that's interesting. He's taking the 5th relative to "producing documents pursuant to subpoena." The 5th amendment normally protects only testimonial issues - i.e., something a person says which may tend to incriminate them. So, if, for example, he put something on a background check form which was not true, then he may take the 5th on a question regarding that info, because his testimony may tend to incriminate him. Here, however, he's saying he's not going to turn over documents because of the 5th Amendment right not to testify against himself..... But, person can invoke his Fifth Amendment rights against the production of documents only where the very act of producing the documents is incriminating in itself. So, it can't be that a person won't produce, say, a bank statement because the statement shows something incriminating. The "act of producing" the documents must be the incriminating thing - the act of producing documents must show the (1) existence; (2) custody; or (3) authenticity of certain documents.

I wish the article had set out the documents that were requested. I glean from the article that the documents had to do with his representations on a security clearance form that he received funds from a US company, when the real source of those funds was the Russian media company, RT. So, it could be that Flynn got a check from a US company, but that the US company was some kind of shell operation, or US subsidiary of RT.

However, taking the 5th means that what you would be saying or disclosing is incriminating. Only question is, incriminating as to what? That could be important, or it could be less important -- like if the disclosure only related to some error on forms he filled out, which could technically be a criminal offense, depending on intent.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Alan B » Tue May 23, 2017 5:09 pm

I see. So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, the 5th can protect a person from producing evidence which might prove their treason...?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 23, 2017 5:20 pm

Alan B wrote:I see. So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, the 5th can protect a person from producing evidence which might prove their treason...?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yep exactly and no other legal system has this loophole. Justice? FFS American justice depends on the size of the wallet.
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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Svartalf » Tue May 23, 2017 5:48 pm

pfff, you don't know French justice... it has changed little since the XCIIth c when lafontaine wrote

According to whether
you'rte mighty or a pauper
Judgments by the courts
shall make you black or white
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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Feck » Tue May 23, 2017 6:14 pm

Give him immunity from prosecution, then he cannot claim the fifth .
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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Tero » Tue May 23, 2017 6:31 pm

Tremendous asshole: such a perfect asshole.

Remember yesterday when First Lady Melania Trump swatted away Donald’s extended hand? Well, the President just landed in Rome, and it looks like things are still a bit shaky in the Trump household.

Donald Trump is a tremendous asshole to his wife, Melania. And the internet has seen that play out in GIF form ever since the day he was inaugurated. We have a GIF that will surely be inducted into the GIF Hall of Fame, where her smile turns to a depressed look as soon as he turns his back. Or, if not the GIF Hall of Fame, at least the Donald J. Trump Presidential Library.

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue May 23, 2017 7:01 pm

In my opinion making the law work harder to prove your guilt is a good thing.

Jus look how easy it is to convince the public someone's done wrong bad, awful stuff.

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue May 23, 2017 10:12 pm

Forty Two wrote:I wish the article had set out the documents that were requested. I glean from the article that the documents had to do with his representations on a security clearance form that he received funds from a US company, when the real source of those funds was the Russian media company, RT. So, it could be that Flynn got a check from a US company, but that the US company was some kind of shell operation, or US subsidiary of RT.

However, taking the 5th means that what you would be saying or disclosing is incriminating. Only question is, incriminating as to what? That could be important, or it could be less important -- like if the disclosure only related to some error on forms he filled out, which could technically be a criminal offense, depending on intent.
According to the article:
The panel wants to see documents relating to Flynn's interactions with Russian officials as part of its probe into Russia's meddling in the 2016 presidential election.
It doesn't seem that the subpoena is for documents related to his taking money from RT. The quote from Cummings essentially states that documents relating to the RT matter are already in the hands of the government.
Meanwhile, the House Oversight Committee's top Democrat, Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland, says documents in the committee's possession suggest Flynn "may have lied to security clearance investigators conducting Flynn's background check in 2016."

Cummings says a report dated March 16 shows Flynn told security clearance investigators he was paid by "U.S. companies" when he traveled in December 2015 to Moscow, where he dined with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

"The actual source of the funds for Flynn's trip," Cummings said in a statement, "was not a U.S. company, but the Russian media propaganda arm, RT."

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Tero » Wed May 24, 2017 1:45 am


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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 24, 2017 2:38 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Alan B wrote:I see. So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, the 5th can protect a person from producing evidence which might prove their treason...?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yep exactly and no other legal system has this loophole. Justice? FFS American justice depends on the size of the wallet.

A system that has a right to remain silent and a right not to testify against oneself has greater protections for the accused than one that doesn't. Making it easier to convict doesn't make justice better.

The right not testify against oneself means a person does not have to answer police questions. If you've ever been questioned by police, you would be likely grateful to be able to keep your mouth shut.

The poor, especially, are protected by the right against self-incrimination. They have the least resources against the government, and if they were compelled to speak, they would have no refuge. At least having the right to not provide testimonial evidence to the police gives the defendant some refuge. You'd make the system fairer by making sure that Billy Bob in Appallachia and Tyrone in Harlem have to answer the cops and prosecutors? How nice of you. That'll make sure they get a fair shake.

And you're dead wrong when you say that "no other legal system" has this protection - not loophole - protection. Canada's constitution has a version in Section 11(c). India has Article 20(3). England and Wales both have such protections, although the jury is allowed to make negative inferences from the exercise of that right. Scottish law has such protections too, and negative inferences are limited. Australia, too, has a privilege against self-incrimination -- a common law right, and a rule of evidence. Japan and the Czech Republic has a right against self-incrimination. Most civilized countries have such a right. It's a more common aspect of the totalitarian to eliminate this kind of protection.

The European Court of Human Rights has held that "the right to remain silent under police questioning and the privilege against self-incrimination are generally recognized international standards which lie at the heart of the notion of a fair procedure under Article 6."

There is good reason to have this kind of protection: It "...protects the innocent as well as the guilty.... one of the Fifth Amendment’s basic functions . . . is to protect innocent men . . . who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances..... truthful responses of an innocent witness, as well as those of a wrongdoer, may provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speaker’s own mouth..." Ohio v. Reiner, 532 U.S. 17 (2001) (per curiam).
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by JimC » Wed May 24, 2017 2:48 am

However, refusal to give evidence which incriminates someone else is not protected - presumably such a refusal could be declared contempt of court, and sanctions imposed...
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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 24, 2017 3:06 am

JimC wrote:However, refusal to give evidence which incriminates someone else is not protected - presumably such a refusal could be declared contempt of court, and sanctions imposed...
Certainly. If he's asserting the privilege to protect someone else, then he won't get far with it. The law is clear in the US, it does not protect against being subpoenaed to testify or to produce documents, except where the answers may tend to incriminate the witness himself. Or, maybe a spouse. I think a spouse doesn't have to testify against their spouse. And, then there would be attorney client privilege, and doctor patient privilege, and priest-penitent privilege, that kind of thing. But, other than all those exceptions...lol
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by JimC » Wed May 24, 2017 3:18 am

Certainly no exemption for refusing to incriminate your boss, even if he is the POTUS...
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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 24, 2017 3:21 am

JimC wrote:Certainly no exemption for refusing to incriminate your boss, even if he is the POTUS...
Indeed, however, I have not read where anyone is asserting a privilege to not incriminate a boss, or the POTUS.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: We need to talk about Donald – the Nightmare continues

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 24, 2017 1:47 pm

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