Donald Trump warns of the Muslim Problem

[JimC]

When your primary and secondary education consists of memorizing the Koran, you may not fare well on a standardized test not based on the Koran.

True, but this underlines the environmental factors that have major effects on measurements of IQ...

[Brian Peacock]

It's not racist when it's justified, and the muslims of certain areas certainly are our enemies

Some Muslims are indeed our self-declared enemies, and that's not a racist statement, nor is it discrimination to act in self-defence on that basis, but that's aside from statements maintaining that 'Muslim' is a race-group. The Jihadists and fundamentalist clerics would love 'Muslim' to count as a discrete race-group, and indeed that's why so many of them are so quick to get up on their hind legs and bleat on about Islamophobia when people criticise regimes that condone the stoning of grandmothers for accepting bread from a non-blood-relative, or blow up school buses full of girls, or call for secular bloggers to be hacked down in the street. That we would like to see an end to that kind of medieval barbarism from some Muslims does not mean that Muslims are 'all of a kind', and that we call out shoddy justifications and unconscionable moral decrepitude and criticise for what it is is not an attack on every member of a faith tradition. Seth and Collector's ranting on about how anthraxing Muslim children is justified to protect Americans from the possibility of future harm, or that being a Muslim means you're racially-dumb by default, simply reinforces the kind of hypocritical stereotyping that the Jihadists and fundamentalist Islamic cleric rely on and employ to fuel hatred among the faithful and secure their own authority.

[piscator]

It's not racist when it's justified, and the muslims of certain areas certainly are our enemies

Some Muslims are indeed our self-declared enemies, and that's not a racist statement, nor is it discrimination to act in self-defence on that basis, but that's aside from statements maintaining that 'Muslim' is a race-group. The Jihadists and fundamentalist clerics would love 'Muslim' to count as a discrete race-group, and indeed that's why so many of them are so quick to get up on their hind legs and bleat on about Islamophobia when people criticise regimes that condone the stoning of grandmothers for accepting bread from a non-blood-relative, or blow up school buses full of girls, or call for secular bloggers to be hacked down in the street. That we would like to see an end to that kind of medieval barbarism from some Muslims does not mean that Muslims are 'all of a kind', and that we call out shoddy justifications and unconscionable moral decrepitude and criticise for what it is is not an attack on every member of a faith tradition. Seth and Collector's ranting on about how anthraxing Muslim children is justified to protect Americans from the possibility of future harm, or that being a Muslim means you're racially-dumb by default, simply reinforces the kind of hypocritical stereotyping that the Jihadists and fundamentalist Islamic cleric rely on and employ to fuel hatred among the faithful and secure their own authority.

Well, the thing is, the more Muslim a person is, the more likely he or she is to want to be an enemy of The Greater and Lesser Satans of the world.

[JimC]

piscator wrote:

Well, the thing is, the more Muslim a person is, the more likely he or she is to want to be an enemy of The Greater and Lesser Satans of the world.

That is a rather peculiar way to put it. Perhaps if you were to say "the more that a muslim's religious beliefs tend towards fundamentalism" you might be more accurate...

[piscator]

piscator wrote:

Well, the thing is, the more Muslim a person is, the more likely he or she is to want to be an enemy of The Greater and Lesser Satans of the world.

That is a rather peculiar way to put it. Perhaps if you were to say "the more that a muslim's religious beliefs tend towards fundamentalism scripture" you might be more accurate...

Fix-ed.

[Brian Peacock]

That just seems to imply that being as Muslim as possible--the 'most Mulsim' thus declared--automatically marks one out as a Jihadist terror plotter. I wouldn't doubt that the vast majority of devout yet peaceable Muslims consider themselves completely and fully Muslim, yet they don't strap explosives to their daughters and tell them to take a stroll down to the market - so the issue really is about the actions of a few nutters and not about the sincerity or depth of belief - however misguided I personally think those beliefs are. Would we say that the more Christian a person is, the more likely they are to shoot up an abortion clinic? Are we to define whole religions by the actions of a violent few?

[JimC]

piscator wrote:

Well, the thing is, the more Muslim a person is, the more likely he or she is to want to be an enemy of The Greater and Lesser Satans of the world.

That is a rather peculiar way to put it. Perhaps if you were to say "the more that a muslim's religious beliefs tend towards fundamentalism scripture" you might be more accurate...

Fix-ed.

A tendency towards violence in the service of religion is not simply a matter of being more exposed to Koranic scripture, it is, for most, being strongly influenced by charismatic, fundamentalist teachers, whether in person or on-line.

[Hermit]

Well, the thing is, the more Muslim a person is, the more likely he or she is to want to be an enemy of The Greater and Lesser Satans of the world.

That is a rather peculiar way to put it. Perhaps if you were to say "the more that a muslim's religious beliefs tend towards fundamentalism" you might be more accurate...

There is a problem with both formulations: While the Qur'an is the central text for all Muslims, the Islamic religion is not at all monolithic. Interpretations of what the holy scripture actually means, and therefore what its adherents ought to do (or not do) vary widely between and within denominations. At one end of the spectrum there are the Jihadists we have become so aware of since the Taliban became a fighting force. On the other end is Sufism. Sufists focus on the mystical, spiritual, otherworldly aspect of Islam. They are numerous - I would say, though I don't have any statistics to back this up - probably the majority, and spread across all Islamic sects, but we don't hear much about them because they don't blow themselves or others up. Whatever, they all claim to be fundamental Muslims. So, basically, saying "the more Muslim a person is, the more likely he or she is to want to be an enemy of The Greater and Lesser Satans of the world" is not just inaccurate - it is outright wrong. Same goes for Jim's attempt to improve on that statement with "the more that a muslim's religious beliefs tend towards fundamentalism".

ETA: Also: What Brian Peacock said.

[JimC]

In the sense I used it, fundamentalism correlates with a rigid belief system where the religious part of life is the only valid part, and where Islam is the only valid religion. This in itself may not be sufficient to generate a willingness to be violent in the cause of Islam, but it would certainly be a damn good start...

[Brian Peacock]

Yeah, as you say even then you need to add in other factors, an authoritative framework which seems to demand a violent response, and some idiot to promote it like a dodgy car dealer you say yes to because you can't think of a good enough reason to say no, even though you want to.

[pErvinalia]

Top Ten Common Muslim Problems:

10) I've got this great new make-up but nobody is ever going to see it.
9) My husband wants me to cook him dinner but I want to play with my Barbie dolls.
8) I am jonesing for a BLT, man.
7) I'm horny but can't decide between my 4 wives, 6 concubines, 12 camels, or my favorite goat.
6) What? Now I can't play fucking chess? Fatwa THIS, motherfucker.
5) I've got a raging headache and I've got to pray.
4) My wife ran away and is hiding at the city dump. I can't tell her from the other bin bags.
3) The only music they'll let me listen to is that Yousef Islam bellend.
2) Apparently bumming your mate is gay. Who knew?

And the number one Common Muslim Problem is:

1) I really want some Buffalo Shrimp and a cold beer, but they'll stone me to death.

[Hermit]

In the sense I used it, fundamentalism correlates with a rigid belief system where the religious part of life is the only valid part, and where Islam is the only valid religion.

Indeed. And taken to the extreme in one direction this can lead to a life of contemplation and asceticism remarkably similar to that of its Christian counterparts, the monks.*

This in itself may not be sufficient to generate a willingness to be violent in the cause of Islam...

Now you seem on your way to understanding why your and piscator's statements are more than inadequate: It is not fundamentalism as such. It is a particular interpretation of the Qur'an (or the Bible).

* http://sunnirazvi.net/sufism/history/monks.htm

[JimC]

In the sense I used it, fundamentalism correlates with a rigid belief system where the religious part of life is the only valid part, and where Islam is the only valid religion.

Indeed. And taken to the extreme in one direction this can lead to a life of contemplation and asceticism remarkably similar to that of its Christian counterparts, the monks.*

This in itself may not be sufficient to generate a willingness to be violent in the cause of Islam...

Now you seem on your way to understanding why your and piscator's statements are more than inadequate: It is not fundamentalism as such. It is a particular interpretation of the Qur'an (or the Bible).

* http://sunnirazvi.net/sufism/history/monks.htm

Well, I would say it is fundamentalism with the addition of a particular interpretation and/or a willingness to obey authority figures. If they have not got that rigid certainty of faith that is the hallmark of fundamentalist belief in any religion, just being exposed to a particular set of writings will not do the trick...

[pErvinalia]

I don't understand what you guys are debating. The same thing goes for extreme Christians, although, they may have less propensity to kill other people these days. Or maybe it's just that there aren't as many extreme Christians as Muslims.

[JimC]

I don't understand what you guys are debating. The same thing goes for extreme Christians, although, they may have less propensity to kill other people these days. Or maybe it's just that there aren't as many extreme Christians as Muslims.

We are just nit picking.

I can nit pick better than Hermit...