Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Warren Dew]

Same thing happened to me Tatt...he was called a Jap because there was still lots of anti-Japanese sentiment after WW2.

Exactly. It was kind of ironic because my mother spent most of her childhood years running from the Japanese as a refugee. Most of the grade school kids had no clue that China was on the same side as the U.S. in WWII.

[maiforpeace]

Same thing happened to me Tatt...he was called a Jap because there was still lots of anti-Japanese sentiment after WW2.

Exactly. It was kind of ironic because my mother spent most of her childhood years running from the Japanese as a refugee. Most of the grade school kids had no clue that China was on the same side as the U.S. in WWII.

The Chinese and Japanese were bitter enemies for centuries and especially during the war - pretty horrendous atrocities were committed against the Chinese.

[Tyrannical]

In a gated community, which is private and not public property, Zimmerman had every right to approach non-resident Traynor and question why he was there. No different than questioning a suspicious person in an apartment building or dorm. I'm sure every college dorm has advised residents to be weary of strangers in the building.

Besides, let's face the obvious.Young Black men have a well deserved reputation for criminal behavior based on statistics and facts. Oh, and adopting a criminally inspired attire and culture (based on facebook evidence) is not how a respectable and law abiding citizens should present themselves. When Blacks as a group start behaving themselves better, then Blacks as a group will be treated better and under less suspicion.

Oh, stop poisoning the well with your racist bullshit.

This kid went out to buy candy and iced tea for fucks sake. Candy and iced tea, and now he's DEAD. What the fuck do other "young black men" have to do with this particular young black man? And what the fuck does the hoodie have to do with it? What the fuck? Black kids can't wear hoodies now without getting shot? I often wear a hoodie when I go out to jog in the morning. Maybe someone should shoot me dead.

Fact is, had Zimmerman not been there with his gun and his paranoia, Trayvon would have continued his walk home in peace, with his candy and tea, and finished watching the game with his family.

How was Zimmerman paranoid? Traynor was a violent thug as proved by his actions.I wouldn't be surprised if Traynor was casing houses to rob as was suggested, because that is the type of individual that attacks the neighborhood watch instead of calmly talking. This was private property and Traynor had no right to be there except as a guest.

[Tyrannical]

Same thing happened to me Tatt...he was called a Jap because there was still lots of anti-Japanese sentiment after WW2.

Exactly. It was kind of ironic because my mother spent most of her childhood years running from the Japanese as a refugee. Most of the grade school kids had no clue that China was on the same side as the U.S. in WWII.

The Chinese and Japanese were bitter enemies for centuries and especially during the war - pretty horrendous atrocities were committed against the Chinese.

I don't know for sure,but I bet the Japanese held a centuries long grudge over that Genghis Khan failed invasion and that was partly responsible for the level of atrocities in WWII.

[DaveD]

...the type of individual...

Why don't you just say he was black?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Same thing happened to me Tatt...he was called a Jap because there was still lots of anti-Japanese sentiment after WW2.

Exactly. It was kind of ironic because my mother spent most of her childhood years running from the Japanese as a refugee. Most of the grade school kids had no clue that China was on the same side as the U.S. in WWII.

They knew in WWII.

[HomerJay]

Deaths Nearly Triple Since “Stand Your Ground” Enacted

It's fairly insane.

[klr]

Deaths Nearly Triple Since “Stand Your Ground” Enacted

It's fairly insane.

I saw that stat mentioned as well in other reports. It's very relevant to the question the OP poses. Statistically speaking, the answer appears to be a clear "yes".

[Warren Dew]

Deaths Nearly Triple Since “Stand Your Ground” Enacted
It's fairly insane.

When compared with a murder rate ranging from 883 to 1201 per year over the last decade, even a tripling of the justifiable homicide rate from 12 to 35 a year does not seem very significant, let alone insane, to me.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

[mistermack]

When compared with a murder rate ranging from 883 to 1201 per year over the last decade, even a tripling of the justifiable homicide rate from 12 to 35 a year does not seem very significant, let alone insane, to me.

But it would be significant, to you, if the next victim was you or your son, or father, etc.
But so long as it's someone else, why should you worry?

I like Obama's reaction, because he clearly has the intelligence to see past that.

[Seth]

Deaths Nearly Triple Since “Stand Your Ground” Enacted

It's fairly insane.

No, it's not, it's entirely sane and rational.

From the article:

According to state crime stats, Florida averaged 12 “justifiable homicide” deaths a year from 2000-2004. After “Stand your Ground” was passed in 2005, the number of “justifiable” deaths has almost tripled to an average of 35 a year, an increase of 283% from 2005-2010.

Note carefully the editorializing going on by putting the word "justifiable" in quotes, as if to say "so-called 'justifiable' deaths," as if those deaths were not legally justified.

But the stats they provided state clearly that the deaths involved are indeed legally justifiable, and therefore what the tripling of the number means is that citizens are lawfully exercising their right to armed self-defense in legally appropriate and justified circumstances three times more often than they were previously. The obvious import of this is that prior to the change in the law, many citizens who were attacked who would have been justified in shooting their assailant but for the "retreat to the wall" statute were most probably victimized unnecessarily because they feared being prosecuted if they did not capitulate or retreat from an assailant before using deadly force.

So, the increase in justifiable shootings is merely indicative of citizens doing what they have a perfect right to to; protecting themselves against criminal attackers without being required to consider either the safety of their attacker or the potential for prosecution once the use of deadly force is justified by the attacker's actions.

It's not only sane, it's a recognition of the rights of victims over the interests of violent criminals that should be extended to every corner of every nation on the face of the earth.

[laklak]

Deaths Nearly Triple Since “Stand Your Ground” Enacted
It's fairly insane.

When compared with a murder rate ranging from 883 to 1201 per year over the last decade, even a tripling of the justifiable homicide rate from 12 to 35 a year does not seem very significant, let alone insane, to me.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

Precisely. Florida passed their liberal concealed carry law in 1987. The expanded Castle Doctrine, AKA Stand Your Ground, was passed in 2005. Here are the relevant homicide statistics from 1987 to 2010, from the same website Warren linked to (statistics compiled by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement)

1987 1,371
1988 1,416
1989 1,405
1990 1,379
1991 1,248
1992 1,208
1993 1,224
1994 1,165
1995 1,037
1996 1,077
1997 1,012
1998 967
1999 859
2000 903
2001 874
2002 911
2003 924
2004 946
2005 883
2006 1,129
2007 1,201
2008 1,169
2009 1,017
2010 987

Homicide rates decreased, with a few bumps, from 87 to 06. There's a jump in 2006, but a steady fall off since then. One might argue that the SYG law passed in 2005 was the cause for the jump but given that the number of justifiable homicides only increased from 12 to 35 (on average) that would be a specious argument at best. A more probable cause was the deteriorating economy.

The population of Florida in 1987 was 14,654,000, in 2010 it was 18,801,310. So if you look at the murder stats as a percentage of population the decrease is even MORE pronounced than the absolute numbers indicate.

I fail to see how this constitutes clear evidence that the SYG laws are the problem.

[amused]

Fmr. Bush Strategist: Conservative Christians Passing Un-Christian Gun Laws

Matthew Dowd, President George W. Bush's former chief strategist, on Sunday observed that the same conservative legislatures and governors who are championing so-called Christian values like prayer in schools are also pushing for dangerous gun laws that are counter to Christian teachings.
...
Dowd continued: "To me, there is such and irony here, that we want to be a Christian nation and we want to act in a Christian manner, but oh, by the way, we don't believe in the turn your other cheek and we don't believe in love your enemy. We believe in loading citizens and basically giving them an opportunity to shoot people."

Color me surprised...

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/dav ... hristians-

[Warren Dew]

But it would be significant, to you, if the next victim was you or your son, or father, etc.

First off, neither my son nor my father is the type to get into serious fistfights, and my brother is not the type to continue whaling on someone once he's got his opponent down. I do have an uncle who was shot in Florida, but the general feeling in the family seems to be that he kind of had that coming, even though it wasn't a self defense shooting. The way to avoid being shot in self defense is simple: don't put others in a position where they can reasonably think they're being threatened.

I'd also note that the number of forcible rapes has dropped in Florida by 1219 per year since "stand your ground" was passed. That's a much bigger number than the additional 23 justifiable homicides, so I think my daughter is far more likely to benefit from the law than my son is to be hurt by it.

[laklak]

Here's a few more tidbits, courtesy of the same site.

Robbery 1987 - 42,869 2010 - 26,086
Aggravated Assault 1987 - 72,896 2010 - 69,523
Burglary 1987 - 271,346 2010 - 169,119
Larceny/Theft 1987 - 546, 466 2010 - 458,454
Vehicle Theft 1987 - 81, 355 2010 - 41,462

Rates for ALL major crimes have dropped since the liberalization of gun laws in Florida, in both absolute numbers and as a percentage of population.

Where is comparable evidence for the anti-gun stance? Anyone?