Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

[Scot Dutchy]

In Northern European social democracies you will find capitalism has quite tight rules to live by. We dont have rampant capitalism of America. In major companies (here one that has more than 100 employers) works councils exist as do Boards of Commissioners (BoC). Board of Directors(BoD) appoint the members of BoC which has immense power under our labour/company laws. It has the power to sack the BoD if it is not doing its job. It approves directors salaries. It speaks directly with share holders.
The works councils are made up of elected employees, trade union reps. and members of the BoC. Here complaints can be raised and working conditions discussed. The council has a veto on BoD decisions.
This system is in place in the Northern European socialist countries except the UK. The boss is not THE boss.

[JimC]

Fair enough, Scot "Lenin" Dutchy...

[Scot Dutchy]

For Brits and Americans it is incomprehensible. In the company I worked the BoD was sacked twice by the BoC because of bad performance and policy.
It does make for good working conditions as labour laws are very strict here. We also have permanent contracts which gives great security.

[Rum]

For Brits and Americans it is incomprehensible. In the company I worked the BoD was sacked twice by the BoC because of bad performance and policy.
It does make for good working conditions as labour laws are very strict here. We also have permanent contracts which gives great security.

Brits remember what industry was like when Unions and 'bosses' were pitted against each other and thousands would walk out over a dispute about 3 minutes extra tea break time. That memory lingers for many.

[Scot Dutchy]

For Brits and Americans it is incomprehensible. In the company I worked the BoD was sacked twice by the BoC because of bad performance and policy.
It does make for good working conditions as labour laws are very strict here. We also have permanent contracts which gives great security.

Brits remember what industry was like when Unions and 'bosses' were pitted against each other and thousands would walk out over a dispute about 3 minutes extra tea break time. That memory lingers for many.

Adversarial politics. I dont say we dont have strikes but they are very seldom. When the train drivers went on strike years ago they did it off-peak so as to cause as little inconvenience to passengers and it only lasted a couple of days before everyone was back round the table. We call it "polder" politics.

[JimC]

For Brits and Americans it is incomprehensible. In the company I worked the BoD was sacked twice by the BoC because of bad performance and policy.
It does make for good working conditions as labour laws are very strict here. We also have permanent contracts which gives great security.

Brits remember what industry was like when Unions and 'bosses' were pitted against each other and thousands would walk out over a dispute about 3 minutes extra tea break time. That memory lingers for many.

In the past at least, there did seem to be a very adversarial system, based on class antagonism, that positioned British unions as very stubborn and bolshie, and the companies as ultra-Tory. Oz has a little of that, but it seems, from what Scot has said, that the Dutch have actually achieved a more sensible labour relations system...

[Scot Dutchy]

We had very strong unions back when we had coal and steel in Limburg. There was many a walk out but the realisation after the second WW with the total devastation of some parts of the country that only together we can rebuild the country. The saving grace of this country we never had a land owning nobility class. Our royal family are not nobility with an idea they are appointed by a higher being that Liz has. Since Trix as gone the religious trappings have vanished. She was old school like Liz.
They are never crowned only appointed by government and can be removed by government. It is just a job but with a few perks. They all actually have day jobs.
All the royal palaces are paid for by the tax payers but that also means they can be sold by the government. We dont have dukes and all that nonsense. There are a couple of jonkheers but nobody pays attention to them as power is firmly in the middle classes.
After the "wederopbouw"(rebuilding) of the fifties and the extreme liberalism of the sixties finally in the 70's structures were put in place for harmony in the working world. This was mainly due to one man who started out as head of the trade unions and was eight years Labour party PM; Wim Kok. He developed the polder model. He always said: "If talks fail start talking again".
Germany has an identical system in place. It works for them and us so why cant it work in Britain or Australia?

[DRSB]

Das Tomb: Karl Marx's Resting Place Has an Entry Fee

History’s foremost advocate of abolishing private property would probably turn in his grave if he learned that it’s not free to visit… his grave.
“Workers of all lands unite,” reads the marble engraving atop Karl Marx’s grave in London. But if said workers were to congregate at the tomb of their advocate, they’d have to part with some of their capital: It costs about $6 to enter the portion of Highgate Cemetery where he lies.

Some modern-day admirers of Marx who want to abolish private property are understandably upset that it’s not free to get in. “There are no depths of irony, or bad taste, to which capitalists won’t sink if they think they can make money out of it,” whined one 24-year-old Marxist to The Wall Street Journal. Instead of paying, he chose to peer over a fence at Marx’s imposing bust. (This is far from the most bitter reaction the grave has inspired: People have tried to blow it up, twice.)

This is not the first time skeptics of capitalism have been given ammunition when it comes to their intellectual forefather’s burial site. The cemetery’s chapel at one point sold mugs and postcards with Marx’s likeness on them. And, about 20 years ago, the Friends of Highgate Cemetery, the charity that maintains it, permitted an Italian fashion brand to stage a photo shoot around Marx’s grave to promote a new line of sportswear emblazoned with Cyrillic characters.

The Atlantic

[Forty Two]

Just look at happy first world nations. They are not capitalist. Mind you 42 would not want to live in a happy country.

They are capitalist. Western Europe is capitalist, especially the happiest ones, like Norway, Sweden and Denmark, which prospered through economic liberalization, and not through socialism.

Denmark's Prime Minister chastised Bernie Sanders for continually referring to Denmark as socialist - https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish ... -socialist

Sweden has among the freest economies in the world, and ranks above the US in economic freedom - i.e., it's more capitalist than the US. https://fee.org/articles/should-america ... edish-way/ From about 1960 to 1990, the US went more socialist in government policies, but when it experienced stagnation and other economic issues, it reversed that course in the 1990s, and it was the economic liberalization and fostering of free market capitalism that made Sweden economically viable.

Norway and the rest of the nordic countries are free market capitalists, and pro free trade - https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/402 ... ade-lovers

The difference is that social democracy is not democratic socialism. We've been over this before, but in short - social democracy is economically capitalist, with a social safety net. Democratic socialism is a socialist economic system where decisions are made by majority vote. The difference between capitalist and socialist is that in socialism the means of production and property are held primarily by the State, whereas in capitalism they're held primarily by the people.

Germany isn't socialist. The UK is not socialist. Canada is not socialist. Oz is not socialist.

All the best countries in the world are capitalist economies.

All the best countries in the world are mixed economies. Take Denmark, for instance. In the link you provided, the Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen is quoted as saying:

The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens ... We have universal health coverage - you don’t pay to see your doctor or go to the hospital. ... We also have a strong and free educational system. Students in institutions for higher education and university do not pay for their education, on the contrary they receive educational grants for studying. ... high taxes. The top income tax in Denmark is almost 60 percent. We have a 25 percent sales tax and on cars the incise duties are up to 180 percent.

Basically, Rasmussen is saying that Denmark is not a socialist country in so far as - and here I quote him from your link again - "Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy".

Indeed, and in that sense the US is a mixed economy as well -- https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer ... conomy.asp A mixed economic system protects private property and allows a level of economic freedom in the use of capital, but also allows for governments to intervene in economic activities in order to achieve social aims and for the public good. The government of the U.S. has always played some role in the economic affairs of the nation. Over the course of its history, many services began to come under the influence or direct control of the public sector.

[Forty Two]

I would not call it the Nordic model. Norway is not a good example due to its massive oil wealth which it has handled well for the whole of the nation. I would term it as the Northern European model. If you think this country is small then Denmark is miniscule.
The basis of Northern European countries is social democracy. An alien beast to the Americans and one totally beyond their comprehension. The simple phrase; "the right to defend" does not belong in a social democratic state. The phrase; "society protects" is more applicable. This once again is total alien to the American mind set.

It's not "totally alien," it's just not one that is generally accepted. Not agreeing with you doesn't mean your concept is "totally alien" to those who disagree.

From the standpoint of "the right to..." it seems that you and some others find "totally alien" the concept of any "right to..." in your democratic societies. Instead, you view it as a virtue to say "you have a right to whatever the majority of elected representatives say you have a right to..." Whereas, in the US, there is a foundational principle related to things or areas where an individual may stand alone, against the tide of the entirety of the rest of the population.

Here in Northern Europe we expect services from the state and are willing to pay for them.

So does pretty much everyone in the United States.

We expect a fair tax regime where the broadest shoulders take the strain.

So do we in the US, where the top 20% of earners pay 87% of the income taxes. We don't have such high "Regressive" taxes as you find in your enlightened northern Europe, though - we have no federal sales tax, and our state sales taxes are pretty much 6 or 7% (with an isolated exception or two). Sales taxes are very "regressive" types of taxes, as they hit people of less means harder (as a greater part of their incomes or wealth) than people of more means. A value added sales tax of 21% is a great way to raise money on the backs of people of less means.

In the US, for example, the regressive nature of the 7% (give or take) sales taxes is ameliorated by exempting necessities, and holding sales tax holidays and such.

We expect a good health system free at point application.

Great, we expect and have a good health care system. People of less means can get free, state-provided health care which is free at the point of application, including all children (ChIP and SCHIP), and Medicaid for people who cannot afford. People of reasonable means are expected to pay into the system (much like taxation) in the form of purchasing insurance policies.

The US system is not much different than many countries in western Europe, such as in those countries where health care is financed primarily through mandatory insurance. In the Netherlands, for example, "While Dutch residents are automatically insured by the government for Wlz, everyone has to take out their own basic healthcare insurance (basisverzekering), except those under 18 who are automatically covered under their parents' premium." Here, in the US, children are covered under their parents' policies until the age of 26, not just 18. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcar ... etherlands

A good fair free education system where every child gets a similar fair opportunity. We also expect a system of social services looking after the vulnerable of society.

We in the US expect that too, which is why the US education system is majority public, where it's "free" (well, the system is paid for through tax revenue, which I guess is what you mean by "free." But Public school, kindergarten through grade 12 (usually approximately the age 18) is paid for by tax revenue. There are private schools, because, in the US, it would be "alien" to most of us to have the State tell us that we cannot decide for ourselves what school our kids go to.

The US has thousands and thousands of colleges and universities for ages 18 to 22 or higher (for Associates, Bachelors, or Masters degrees) which have tuitions in all ranges, from easily affordable local community colleges, to state colleges and universities, to private colleges and universities of all shapes and sizes. There are grants and government assistance to the poor. there are scholarships. There are guaranteed government loans. If you want to go to college in the US, you can. And, while many people do make inappropriate financial decisions and attend excessively expensive universities to obtain degrees which are not financially rewarding, that isn't something they have to do. There is choice.

We aren't like those countries, though, which say they provide "free" college to everyone ,but really it means "free college to those who can get in" and only very small percentage of people can really attend. Here in the US, even a person who does extremely poorly in high school can attend the local community college and earn an associates degree.

All these services and their application is part of socialist society and have nothing to do with capitalism. We are willing to work but do not want to be exploited. Here people dont work all the hours possible. Life is more than just work. We want to enjoy it and demand it. Something lost on American ears.

Yes, totally alien to Americans, who work just about the OECD average number of hours per week. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/01/ ... est-hours/

Why doesn't the rest of the world just do what three or four tiny, well-protected, well-insulated western European (mostly capitalist) countries do? LOL

[Forty Two]

Das Tomb: Karl Marx's Resting Place Has an Entry Fee

History’s foremost advocate of abolishing private property would probably turn in his grave if he learned that it’s not free to visit… his grave.
“Workers of all lands unite,” reads the marble engraving atop Karl Marx’s grave in London. But if said workers were to congregate at the tomb of their advocate, they’d have to part with some of their capital: It costs about $6 to enter the portion of Highgate Cemetery where he lies.

Some modern-day admirers of Marx who want to abolish private property are understandably upset that it’s not free to get in. “There are no depths of irony, or bad taste, to which capitalists won’t sink if they think they can make money out of it,” whined one 24-year-old Marxist to The Wall Street Journal. Instead of paying, he chose to peer over a fence at Marx’s imposing bust. (This is far from the most bitter reaction the grave has inspired: People have tried to blow it up, twice.)

This is not the first time skeptics of capitalism have been given ammunition when it comes to their intellectual forefather’s burial site. The cemetery’s chapel at one point sold mugs and postcards with Marx’s likeness on them. And, about 20 years ago, the Friends of Highgate Cemetery, the charity that maintains it, permitted an Italian fashion brand to stage a photo shoot around Marx’s grave to promote a new line of sportswear emblazoned with Cyrillic characters.

The Atlantic

Shouldn't he have rolled in his grave at the prospect of him being honored by a wasteful and unnecessary exhibit?

A 24 year old Marxist says it's "the depth of depravity" to charge to enter an exhibit which costs money to maintain. Oh, no, what would be far less depraved would be to have an exhibit that most people probably don't want funded by everyone including those who don't want it. LOL.

Look at what else irks the socialists - that the cemetary's chapel sold mugs and postcards! Oh, my! How many times have we argued on this forum about socialism and someone has tried to argue that socialism is not opposed to business, buying and selling, and even earning a profit on same? We're told that socialism doesn't mean you can run a business and sell stuff and make money! So why would socialists consider it anticapitalist ammunition for people to sell post cards and mugs? What do they want? The government to fund mug and postcard production out of the public treasury? Oh, no, that's not what socialism means at all.... socialism is having a police force and a library!

What possibly would be anti-socialist about a charity allowing a photo shoot to get images to use on a new line of sportswear? What is, pray tell, socialism "against" if it opposes this? Sportswear? Photos of Marx? Cyrillic characters? Think hard about this... what is anti-socialist about that?

[Forty Two]

For Brits and Americans it is incomprehensible. In the company I worked the BoD was sacked twice by the BoC because of bad performance and policy.
It does make for good working conditions as labour laws are very strict here. We also have permanent contracts which gives great security.

Brits remember what industry was like when Unions and 'bosses' were pitted against each other and thousands would walk out over a dispute about 3 minutes extra tea break time. That memory lingers for many.

Adversarial politics. I dont say we dont have strikes but they are very seldom. When the train drivers went on strike years ago they did it off-peak so as to cause as little inconvenience to passengers and it only lasted a couple of days before everyone was back round the table. We call it "polder" politics.

Trains don't matter in Dutch-land, because people can ride a bicycle from one end of the country to the other in an hour.

[Scot Dutchy]

I see someone has written a load of garbage again. (TG!) he is on my ignore list. Save your effort 42 I never read your muck so dont read mine.

[Forty Two]

For Brits and Americans it is incomprehensible. In the company I worked the BoD was sacked twice by the BoC because of bad performance and policy.
It does make for good working conditions as labour laws are very strict here. We also have permanent contracts which gives great security.

Your baristas and store checkout clerks, plumbers, electricians, construction workers, lawyers, doctors and accountants have permanent employment contracts? How does that work, exactly?

Here in the US, children start work at age 6, mainly going to the mines after school lets out in the evening. They work until midnight and then get a cup of cold gruel for dinner before it's off to a bed, made of bedrock. As adults, school goes away, and it's hard labor full time and in the US, full time means a mere 80 hours per week. The capitalist system means that they pay to work there, and come home to their shoebox in the middle of the road where they are fed a cup of cold poison, and then their parents slice them in two with a bread knife, and then dance about their graves, singing hallelujah -- if they're looky...

Meanwhile, in the Shangri-la, aka Holland -- er, I mean - "The Netherlands" -- all food, clothing, shelter, and good quality beer, as well as education, healthcare, vacations, and bicycles are free at the point of service. Everyone smiles and is happy. Work is voluntary, and the janitors and sewer system repairpersons, power line workers, miners, and ditch diggers all work out of love of Community and a perfect sense of altruism.... they can all perform their voluntary duties while on holiday in Majorca while drinking free Claret, Chateau Thames Embankment.

[Forty Two]

I see someone has written a load of garbage again. (TG!) he is on my ignore list. Save your effort 42 I never read your muck so dont read mine.

It's painfully obvious you don't read, yes.